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Tipping

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Are you generous?
15 years ago, June 20th 2008 No: 21 Msg: #39362  
This reminds me of the movie 'Resevoir Dogs', the tipping conversation...

Nice Guy Eddie: C'mon, throw in a buck!
Mr. Pink: Uh-uh, I don't tip.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't tip?
Mr. Pink: Nah, I don't believe in it.
Nice Guy Eddie: You don't believe in tipping?
Mr. Blue: You know what these chicks make? They make shit.
Mr. Pink: Don't give me that. She don't make enough money that she can quit.
Nice Guy Eddie: I don't even know a f#!$ing Jew who'd have the balls to say that. Let me get this straight: you don't ever tip?
Mr. Pink: I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job.

And later on in the conversation...

Mr. Pink: I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's f!#%!e(MISSING)d up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government f!#%!s(MISSING) in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to f!#$in' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big f!#$in' surprise.

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15 years ago, June 20th 2008 No: 22 Msg: #39364  
I must say I agree with that, it isn't our fault that the service industry pays them bad, so it shouldn't be taken out on us... By the way I waited and tended bar in New Zealand and I can tell you it pays shit too... And nobody tips there either, but so it goes... I got paid to do my job and I do it, whether I get tipped or not... There were some people who tipped me and to be fair they were Americans, I appreciated it, but I didn't serve them faster or better then someone who didn't tip me... I worked with a smile and tried to serve everybody as good as I could, with or without tips.... Reply to this

15 years ago, June 20th 2008 No: 23 Msg: #39391  
LOL
Good quote!

If I knew this conversation has already been had I would have just posted that quote instead of reinventing the wheel. :D Reply to this

15 years ago, June 22nd 2008 No: 24 Msg: #39535  
Hey, I live in NYC and have been dealing with this all my life.

I have also been told that people in the hospitality industry here are taxed on their 'expected tips' so if you fail to tip then they are loosing money. Is this correct??



Sarah & Mike - Glad to hear you've been enjoying your time in America, to answer your question. The IRS (US Gov't Tax Collection Agency) assumes that all servers are tipped 15%!o(MISSING)n all meals they serve. I'm not sure how the formula works, but in essence your statement above is correct. If you stiff a server in the USA they are probably paying income taxes on tips they never earned. This all started because restaurant workers were failing to declare tips they earned.

As for the original question. I'm pretty random myself, most of the time I give the standard 15-20%!w(MISSING)hen I'm at home, on the road I follow the local customs. Sometimes when I'm traveling I do find myself give excessive tips, for example when I was in Angkor Wat we met this fantastic tuk-tuk driver and hired him for three days, he was great so when the time came to pay him we paid him$20 a day instead of the agreed upon $10. This extra $30 was the equivalent of a month and a half salary for him. At the time I could have used the extra $15 dollars but in reality that $15 would have lasted me 2 days and it probably fed him and his family for the month. By the way, the smile on his face when we gave him the money was priceless!

- Alan

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15 years ago, June 23rd 2008 No: 25 Msg: #39649  
B Posts: 212
I don't understand how that could work - surely you can only be taxed on money that you've actually been paid? So say for arguments sake as a waiter you are getting $100 a week and that particular week you get no tips - so the amount on your pay slip shows as $100 and say income tax is 20%!s(MISSING)o you'll presumably get taxed on that 20%!m(MISSING)inus any tax allowance (if there is any in the US). And if for some reason tips don't have to be put as a separate item on pay slips, then the government assumes 15%!o(MISSING)f that $100 is from tips - it's still the same amount the waiter is being taxed - unless tips get taxed at a higher rate? which I don't understand - income tax is income tax. If waiters get paid as poorly as people have been saying, the so called 15%!t(MISSING)hat is assumed as tips could not surely push some of the income into a higher rate bracket? - which is the only reason I can see that they would end up getting unfair tax. If the government are levying taxes on amounts that they're not even seeing on the books, then their tax system is illegal. It couldn't happen if tax gets deducted at source. And if every worker is responsible for submitting their own tax returns, well, it's still illegal (and corrupt). Then the IRS could do that with any self-employed person - they could say, well you SAY you earned $30,000 dollars profit this year, but we think it was $40,000 so we're going to tax you on that. But again - whatever the situation - this is an issue for the workers in the US to take a stand against their employers and if necessary, the government and government agencies, because it sounds like the system is corrupt. They shouldn't be blaming tourists and holding them responsible for the situation, and trying to encourage them to condone the corruptness - should they?????????? Maybe someone should tell Michael Moore to make a film about it...
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15 years ago, June 23rd 2008 No: 26 Msg: #39655  
Looks like the waiters in the US could potentially end up paying the government tax and earning nothing or less than nothing even. It is hardly surprising that they are demanding with their customers. Not pleasant for us customers, but understandable. Well, I think I will avoid waiter service restaurants when in the US. Dont want to deal with that stress when I am out to have a good time. Reply to this

15 years ago, June 23rd 2008 No: 27 Msg: #39666  
Deb -- Sorry to get you all worked up about this, let me explain how the servers are taxed in more detail because it's not how you've explained above.

The Federal minimum wage in the USA is $6.50 hr- before taxes (i think, it might have gone up in the last 2-3 years, not sure) but waiters salaries fall under different guidelines. They have a minimum wage of $2.15 hr (approx). Most server staff agree to this because of the tips. Now let me show how the tax is figured. I hate to do this but the easiest way is for me to show a sample transaction:

dinner bill subtotal: $100.00
state sales tax: $8.38 -- NY 8.375 %!((MISSING)sales tax is the same as VAT tax in europe)
total: $108.38

Restaurants are required to tell the IRS the total of all bills less the sales tax. The IRS then assumes the waiter that served this meal recieved a 15%!t(MISSING)ip or $15.00. So if the waiter only received a $10 tip they are paying tax up front on $5 they didn't actually earn. At the same time if they are tipped $20 for the same meal then there are $5 they are not paying tax on up front. Now I say paying the tax up-front because in the USA under federal law businesses are required to withhold taxes from an employees pay check. The IRS only wants to tax you an your actual earnings, so by April 15 of every-year you are required to file a tax return detailing all your earnings for the previous year (it's quite the complex form). Basically when you send in the tax return one of two things happen, you either owe money so you send a payment along with the return and settle your tax bill or the IRS owes you because too much money was withheld during the year and they send you a refund.

So, it's on waiters and waitresses to keep accurate records of their earnings and file for a refund if they've been over-taxed. Like I said in my last post this all came about because waiters were failing to report all their gratuity income for the year, trying to just pay income tax on the $2.15 hr. Also, I'm no expert. I'm pretty sure this is how it works, but if I'm wrong someone please chime in.

All that being said, there are plenty of things to complain about regarding the IRS, US Tax System and paying taxes in general. Just not exclusively by waiters and service employees.

Mell - please don't avoid waiter restaurants, they could all use your business - tip fairly, if the service stinks tip accordingly. Maybe the waiter/waitress will wake up and realize they need to do a better job to earn their pay! Or they'll quit eventually and find another job. Either way we'll all be better off. Reply to this

15 years ago, June 24th 2008 No: 28 Msg: #39724  
Not sure I want to buy things I dont like because the businesses could use my business. The businesses who provide something I like could also use my business.

And there is the thing where the waiter has to pay tax on my gifts, when I already payed tax on them when I earned them........ It is my gift to give and I would want to give it all to the waiter.

But I suppose I would get used to it again like I did when I lived in Canada, if I spent some time in the US.
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15 years ago, June 24th 2008 No: 29 Msg: #39768  
Interesting thread indeed. I'll give my 2 cents worth.

I find it interesting how many people feel that tipping is 'expected' regardless of quality of food and/or service. So let me say this:

Tipping ALWAYS starts at ZERO and works its way up. It does not start at 18% and fluctuate. FACT!

Those that bitch about poor wages and get grumpy when you give poor service and receive no tips should find a new line of work. I work hard for my money (and my job bonus), and so should you. Reply to this

15 years ago, June 26th 2008 No: 30 Msg: #40031  
B Posts: 66
I LOVE Resevoir Dogs!!

Anyway, it's a great thread. I am quite spontaneous about tipping. I have travelled enough to know when a rickshaw driver, a vendor, or a waiter is trying to overcharge me just because I am a westerner. If they're trying to cheat me I surely won't tip. I won't even buy. Otherwise I am quite generous when it comes to tipping. When I travel, especially in Asia, if I find someone especially honest and trustworthy, I try to "keep" them for the rest of my stay and also for return visits. For example, in India, I have used the same driver for 5 years.

I just came back from Thailand and had some cab drivers d-e-m-a-n-d that I tip them. That of course creates the reverse effect -- I think the essence of tipping is that the tip isn't asked for.

When in Nigeria, the locals wanted my money for all kinds of invented "services". I took some pictures and some local man walked up to me saying that his friend happened to be in the picture I just took so I owe them some fees. This was in a village that's not even on the map. Although it was hilarious, I try not to encourage criminal behavior so I didn't pay this "agent".

Anyway, I think tipping is up to the customer, no matter where you are.


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15 years ago, June 27th 2008 No: 31 Msg: #40082  
B Posts: 104
Very funny quote! :-) Did you remember it all word for word?!

I prefer pulp fiction personally! Ezekiel 25:17,

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee......"


It just occured to me, do you all object to handing over money for taking a photo of a person in traditional dress in somewhere like Cusco or Angkor? Reason I ask is that they are actually exploiting tourists as it is only the gringoes that hand over this money & yet it appears to me there is less annoyance at this. Why is this? Afterall it is "custom" in Cambodia & Peru to ask for money when someone is a subject for our photos.

Like the "custom" in the US is 15%!t(MISSING)ip (and this is for locals and tourists alike)..... Is the issue here, the fact it is America and not a different country like Cambodia???

I agree completely that if you get bad service ZERO tip should be left, and I think everyone would agree with that. However on my travels through the US over the last 3 weeks I have only ever experienced good if not great service for all the breakfast, lunches and dinners and this is why I am happy to use the guideline of a standard tip being 15%! (MISSING)

I guess it comes down to whether you feel it is appropriate to adhere to the customs in some countries and not others.

Finally to those of you who say you would avoid service restaurants, don't! Go in and try, if you get bad service just leave NO tip! Otherwise enjoy your food and a friendly waiter, think of yourself acting in the name of charity and goodwill!

Michael
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15 years ago, June 27th 2008 No: 32 Msg: #40096  
LOL

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men....



If Ezekiel stopped after saying this much, I would be impressed. :D
I wonder if he out of charity and good will led the weak through the valley of darkness or did he spend all his time making making righteous speeches and calling on the Lord to lay vengence upon those he did not agree with him. :D

I dont object to handing over money at all. It is more the demanding attitude of the tip demanders that I find a turn off. If they clearly state what they expect and then I could decide if I want it or not that would be a different situation. It is the unstated expectations and the potential for embarassment that the tipping expectation creates that I dont like. It would be the same in any country. If people say what they expect then I know what to do.

I heard Oprah on TV several years ago saying that she tips extra because the waiters think black people and women are bad tippers. So who does tip well then? White macho men?? That would mean that I as a full time mother would automatically be part of the group who is discriminated against by US waiters because I dont earn as well as white males and so do not have the same tipping potential. If I give a minimum tip of 15%!i(MISSING)t would be considered typical of people like me??

I agree completely that if you get bad service ZERO tip should be left....


But then a waiter in the US would have to pay tax on money that (s)he did not get. Do they really deserve to be fined like that just because they gave a not so great service?

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15 years ago, June 27th 2008 No: 33 Msg: #40134  
According to the good old Oxford English dictionary, the word "tipping" originates from the 16th century verb "tip", which means "to give unexpectedly". To me this means that anything given as a "tip" should be unprompted - without any expectation from the recipient. A "tip" is given as a gift at the discretion of the grateful customer - it is a token of gratitude - hence "gratuity".

In the forum postings so far most people have linked tipping with gratitude related to the level of service they received, but in the US where tipping is a social norm, is the standard of service you receive better than in the UK where tipping is discretionary or Japan where it doesn't exist? I don't think so. I can only conclude therefore that Americans insist on tipping because they know the person serving them is being paid a lousy wage. Tipping is not so much a custom as it is an expression of national guilt for a flawed system which allows employees to pay exploitative wages.

This would seem to link well with an article I read by an academic who'd done a study on "tipping" across the world. His conclusion was that countries with the most extroverted and neurotic citizens (categories that the United States apparently leads in) "tipped" the largest amounts to the broadest range of service providers. "Extroverts are outgoing, dominating, social people - and tipping is an incentive for the server to pay you attention. Neurotics are prone to guilt and generalized anxiety - maybe they tip more because of guilt over status differences between themselves and the server".

I think Oprah could well be an extroverted neurotic.



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15 years ago, July 1st 2008 No: 34 Msg: #40551  
coz the US govn expects staff in service industries to get at least 15%!t(MISSING)ips, is that the reason for the expectation thrown on customers then? to tip at least 15%!f(MISSING)or services?

The "tipping culture" may not be to hot in Bali, the argument here isn't should you tip and ignorant and rude person, but if you receive good service in the US, please tip.



what im trying to say here is (regardless of whether it's US or not) tipping is something voluntary, not demanded or expected.

Eg: Ali's case where he actually intended to tip the barman - if the barman is a little more 'professional', it's gonna be a 'happy ending'. or AlanZ's tuktuk driver... if you are happy in providing a good service (without hoping for tips) who knws what's waiting? $30 is a lot of money to many people in Asean coutries. Reply to this

15 years ago, July 2nd 2008 No: 35 Msg: #40620  
the American system just sounds ****ed up! And did I understand correctly from one of the posts that the price of items in shops/supermarkets isn't the price you actually pay? How are you supposed to know how much you're spending on groceries?

Anyway, I'm from NZ where tipping doesn't happen. Apparently NZers are amongst the least-liked people by the service industry overseas because we don't tip or do so only poorly. In the opinion of Antipodeans you do your job because that's what you're getting paid to do and if you don't like that job then get a different one. You're in the service industry because you like interaction with people.

I was once tipped in my job in NZ, by an American, and I considered it to be both embarrassing and insulting, quite apart from the fact that he tipped in American dollars...I mean, what use is a couple of American dollars to me in NZ? Reply to this

15 years ago, July 2nd 2008 No: 36 Msg: #40690  

the American system just sounds ****ed up! And did I understand correctly from one of the posts that the price of items in shops/supermarkets isn't the price you actually pay? How are you supposed to know how much you're spending on groceries?



I lived in New York for a few months. Yeah, the tax not being included in the prices displayed is a nuisance. You have to guess how much your bill will be. I am not sure if all items have the same tax percentage or if some have a different percentage. Maybe somebody here can answer that.
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15 years ago, July 31st 2008 No: 37 Msg: #43699  
I'm glad to see that the UK government is taking a stand against employers who use tipping as an excuse to pay awful wages: BBC Report
Perhaps this is something the US need to look. Reply to this

15 years ago, July 31st 2008 No: 38 Msg: #43702  
What really irks me is the "tip" that is automatically added to the bill whether you want to tip or not. It is often called a "Service Charge". This seems to be common throughout Europe and I notice it has been recently creeping into some Australian restaurants. They get really upset when I refuse to pay it if the service was bad. Reply to this

15 years ago, July 31st 2008 No: 39 Msg: #43717  
N Posts: 7
I usually tip depending on service. But when the service-charge is already included i don't.

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15 years ago, July 31st 2008 No: 40 Msg: #43790  
I'll be happy to answer the tax question Mel. Sales tax is charged on all items other than groceries (so at a supermarket, apples and bread and meat and the like is tax exempt, but restaurant food and just about everything else you can think of is taxable) and is determined by each state. Some states do not charge a sales tax (like Oregon) but then residents pay an income tax yearly instead. The rest of the states have a sales tax somewhere between 6 - 10%! (MISSING) So all taxable items are taxed the same within each state. When you arrive at your hotel or hostel, it would be good practice to ask somewhere there what sales tax is in that state, then you'll know how much to add when calculating your bill!

If you're shopping at craft fairs or outdoor markets or a few select small stores, vendors occasionally include the sales tax in their prices. So for example, if sales tax was 10%!a(MISSING)nd an item might have a price of $10, the real price would be something like $9.09 with the 91 cents worth of tax already included. In cases like this there will ALWAYS be a sign saying that sales tax is included, just like in a restaurant it will say something on the menu or receipt if gratuity is included.

Gratuity works much the same was as tax. In other countries when restaurants determine how much to charge for their food, the cost of employee labor is included IN the cost of the dish. You're still paying for that employee to bring you food, it just might not seem like it. In the US, for whatever reason (I imagine it's so food prices seem lower...) the cost of employee labor is NOT included in the price of the meal and is instead paid directly to the server in the form of a "tip." Service charge might be a more appropriate name for it as the cost listed on the menu strictly pays for the food cost, restaurant overhead and labor involved in making the food, NOT the labor involved in plating your food, bringing it to you, wiping the table down, etc. So while it is indeed "customary" to provide 15-20%!f(MISSING)or good service, walking away without leaving a tip (even for bad service) is like walking away without paying part of your bill.

I would suggest that if you feel the service was so terrible as to warrant not leaving ANY sort of tip, you should definitely ask to speak with the manager. Everyone is right in saying bad service shouldn't get rewarded, but not tipping just reiterates that stereotype that foreigners don't tip. Letting the manager know how horrible you found the service not only addresses the problem, but ofttimes your meal will be comp'ed if service was really just that awful as to ruin your experience there.

There have been a few times I've not tipped in the US, one notable incident involved a tray-full of water being spilled down my back (and even then I would have still left something had I been brought a towel or apology)....but aside from that I tip anywhere from 10%!((MISSING)bad service) to 25%!((MISSING)when the server really makes the meal something special).

Hope that clarified a little about the US financial system. As Mike and Sarah mentioned above, since the same tipping policy applies to EVERYONE (locals and visitors), 98%!o(MISSING)f all restaurant patrons are citizens who don't see the error to that system, so a protest from the 2%!o(MISSING)f travelers doesn't' do much to change the system, it really just cheats the employee for that days work. Reply to this

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