Flying With Children - revisited.

But, I suppose I cant expect singles to understand what it is like for parents when the kids are taking up one ear with their complaints and demands, while the general public are taking the other with theirs.

I think my daughter is in fact all the bad passanger things rolled into one little bundle, making her the worst passanger ever to be stuck beside on a 10 hour flight. Amazing what love can make me put up with. Though, I seriously wonder sometimes why I dont just leave her at home so I can relax while travelling.

Quote by deleted_49612

I think drugging children on long flights should be acceptable - nothing that would harm them obviously - but - it's an unpleasant experience for everyone involved. A travel sickness tablet should knock most of them out for about 6 hrs 😊 (look for the ones with the drowsy side-effect Dimenhydrinate Diphenhydramine being the drowse inducing part...)

Snoring, farting, stinky, halitosis ridden seat mates - had them all - I get a window seat whenever possible - and if my neighbour isn't someone super interesting - I put in earplugs, eye-mask, pull up a hoodie - and pop myself a drowse inducing travel sickness tablet and sleep as much of the flight as possible. It's the seat kickers that are the only ones I can't ignore... which brings us back to children 😉

Mell - I have every sympathy for parents - it must be tough trying to keep everyone happy in situations like that. It sounds like you're one of the parents that at least tries.... the ones that don't are the ones that annoy me.

Quote by Ali



I have to agree with Mell here.

Now I have had a seat kicker behind me whose parents seemed to do nothing about it, not even to verbally chastise him, which is irritating. I will give anyone that! Seat kickers and those people who put their knees on your seat and thereby constantly shove it up and down are quite annoying.

But when one is not a parent, one thinks that the world belongs to single people and that one is therefore entitled to bemoan the presence of children (particularly those Western children who we don't photograph for our blogs) and their involvement in an adult world. However, this is a totally ethnocentric view of children, which I think is a bit ironic since this is a travel site which some might conjecture is for the purpose of expanding our own limited world views. Outside of cultures in much of Europe and the Angloworld, children are actually viewed as equally valid members of society and major contributors to the social atmosphere without whom life would just not be worth much, and it would be as shocking and rights-affronting to suggest that they just stay at home, be drugged on transport, or should be "seen but not heard" as it would be to make such a blanket statement about any other category of persons; say, women, or the disabled, for example. Can you imagine if someone made the same suggestion about women or the disabled? There would be rioting! The idea that children are a nuisance and not worthy of the same respect for their right to be vocal as we afford adult strangers (even if we think they are loud or obnoxious, there is a basic understanding that you don't have the right to tell them to be quiet) is NOT a universal ideal. Readers of this survey should recognize the distinctly North American cultural subordination of the "priceless but useless child" in these results, especially those readers on a travel forum. Reply to this

Ali,

While I partly understand where you are coming from, I also think you miss the irony in what you say and how you completely corroborate what I previously posted. You say that the child doesn't actually need to travel (and depersonify the child by referring to the child as "it") when you completely overlook the fact that these "people" (presumably differentiated from children, not people) who are on an "already uncomfortable journey" also don't actually need to holiday so far away if they can't hack a) the discomfort of a plane and b) coexisting with others in a social environment!

What you suggest, even if playing devil's advocate, is shockingly discriminatory. You are first assuming that all children will be little terrors and therefore grouping all those little muskrats into one category with their parents, the evil spawners who had the audacity to think that they have the right to determine where their children go with them, rather than total strangers. Therefore parents with a perfectly well-behaved child should be sent to airplane purgatory, where they will be punished with all the seat-kicking those little impish beings will inevitably dole out, for being brazen enough to set foot on a plane with their child. (Who, by the way, are not all necessarily traveling for holiday purposes.)

More to the point, though, this is encouraging mandatory segregation of different social groups, based on the prioritization of one group over another, by saying that certain people should not have the same right to inhabit a particular public space as others. Assuming that single adult Western holidaymakers’ rights trump those of children's or other adults who happen to be parents demonstrates a real arrogance on the part of independent travelers....an arrogance of this type is one that most travelers on this site would probably be loathe to demonstrate in the third world where they would be viewed as culturally insensitive and probably racist and imperialistic (for example, would you suggest that women with children in Mali not be allowed on the same sardine-packed 10 hour minibus ride as you?), but we seem to deem it acceptable in the confines of our "own" society (which is arguable anyway if you are on a long-haul flight transversing the globe).

Yesterday I went into the card shop and a mentally retarded man came in and was singing a Backstreet Boys at the top of his lungs the entire time and unfortunately didn't have much of a talent for pitch. However, it really wouldn't be appropriate for me to suggest that he be kept away from the public sphere so as not to cause an uncomfortable shopping experience for me, to segregate him from the social atmospheres that we "normal" people inhabit. Neither does it seem appropriate for me to bemoan someone in a wheelchair getting on an already crowded city bus which is just going to diminish the standing space even more, even if it impacts my discomfort. Yet you seem to say we should apparently not have any extra understanding for people in different developmental stages than ourselves, like the disabled…or children?

What is really boils down to here is that whatever the travel offense -- a loud snorer, a chronic bathroom goer, or my personal pet peeve, the guy with a cold who ends up not only negatively impacting your 12 hour journey but your health for a week afterward (none of which, by the way, would be tackled and cuffed by an air marshal but can be just as annoying as a seat kicker) -- the complainer must really ask himself one thing. Who is the problem here, everybody else that I can't seem to deal with, or me? It is society that creates the "problems" of the child, the disabled, the racial inferior, etc. that one doesn't want to sit near, it is a socially constructed individual view that certain “problem” groups’ rights to mobility should be subjugated to the comfort needs of “normal” groups, and it is a uniquely societal view that an answer to these "problems" is segregation or medicalization.

(By the way that is a huge can of worms to open as well, as you will find many even in the West who are staunchly opposed to medicalizing children just to make adults more comfortable in their little adult world and to "ease" the job of parenting. I'm not convinced that putting drugs into a child would be for the child's best interest, but what you would do with your kids is your choice.)

I've had many an uncomfortable flight, and many an awkward, anger-inducing, and downright horrible travel experience as well....but at the end of the day, this is life, with all its fascinating and desirable aspects come the less comfortable and irritating aspects too. If you (not you personally Ali, but the proverbial plural 'you') are unhappy about it and can't find a way to change your own perceptions of the "problem" perhaps it is a sign to either a) find a different mode of travel yourself, like hiring a private charter so you don't have to deal with all those undesirable people mucking up your social world, or to b) stop traveling!

Happiness mainly comes from our own attitude, rather than from external factors. If your own mental attitude is correct, even if you remain in a hostile atmosphere, you feel happy. -- The Dalai Lama

If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment. -- Marcus Aurelius

Reply to this

Now I have had a seat kicker behind me whose parents seemed to do nothing about it, not even to verbally chastise him, which is irritating. I will give anyone that! Seat kickers and those people who put their knees on your seat and thereby constantly shove it up and down are quite annoying.

This reminds me of a teenage girl who was sitting behind me on one flight. My seat was broken, so wouldnt lock into any position. The girl was leaning her knees on my seat, so everytime I moved in any direction her knees on the seat would push it forward. After a while I turned around to ask her to put her to take her knees off my seat. Before I took a breath to say it, she told me I am to make up my mind about which way I want to sit. :0. I said, ''look, this is my seat, and it is broken, so would you take your knees off it. '' She took her knees off the seat, for the rest of the flight, but tried to bitch about me, with the other teenage girls sittting in her row. At least they had the good sense to not to get in the middle of it.
Reply to this

When I have kids - if they cause real discomfort for others travelling - I will sedate them - for the benefit of everyone including the child.

I used to be childless and single, so I know where you are comming from with this comment. But, what you dont realise yet is just how often you would need to sedate your kid/s for the sake of keeping everybody happy. Neighbours, churches, restaruants, supermarkets, even kids being noisy in playgrouds will cause complaints..... As for drugging them, to convenience yourself" Well, it wont be just for one night, you will have not only weeks of broken sleep, you will have months of toddler tantrums, you will have the every day in and day out of the usual child chaos and noise in your house..... Your tolerance for noise, demands on your attention, mess... will be tested to the limits. When you have had several hours of this, before you even board the plane, will you be able to push almost beyond your patience boundries to respond to that single on the plane who is ''politely'' suggesting that you drug your kid? This is what we as parents have learned to do. Most of the time we manage to calmly respond, at other times it is all too much so we put out heads down and tune it all out, as well as the added critisism about how how horrible our children are and how we are not doing anything about them, out of ''lack of consideration''. You would need to drug your kids for years, if you want to be comfortable.

Yes, you could leave them at home. But remember that you and your partner will likely take a big dip in income after you have children. One of you is not going to be working or working a lot less or else there are childcare expenses and babysitter expenses. Leaving our kids at home with a babysiter so we can have a romantic night out, or a nice quiet plane ride is an infrequent luxury for most of us. Reply to this

What you suggest, even if playing devil's advocate, is shockingly discriminatory. You are first assuming that all children will be little terrors and therefore grouping all those little muskrats into one category with their parents, the evil spawners who had the audacity to think that they have the right to determine where their children go with them, rather than total strangers. Therefore parents with a perfectly well-behaved child should be sent to airplane purgatory, where they will be punished with all the seat-kicking those little impish beings will inevitably dole out, for being brazen enough to set foot on a plane with their child. (Who, by the way, are not all necessarily traveling for holiday purposes.)

All kids go through difficult stages, and some have difficult temperaments. It is a fact of parenting. There are some parents who claim it is not so, but I wonder if they may be giving what they consider to be the socially acceptable opinion. The parents with the unruly kids need the patience of other passanges even more than any other parents do.
Reply to this

....the complainer must really ask himself one thing. Who is the problem here, everybody else that I can't seem to deal with, or me?

That is a good question. We as parents also have an opinion about whether it is our children, or somebody else who is the problem. I think many unknowingly aggrivate an uncomfortable situation, and make it intolerable.

.... but what you would do with your kids is your choice.

I am not so sure that things like that should be completely our choice. There is a point where doing what we want with our children can cross the line to abuse and/or neglect. Reply to this

12 posts merged into this topic from: Who are the worst airline passengers? Reply to this

Mel > "But, what you dont realise yet is just how often you would need to sedate your kid/s for the sake of keeping everybody happy. Neighbours, churches, restaruants, supermarkets, even kids being noisy in playgrouds will cause complaints..... As for drugging them, to convenience yourself" Well, it wont be just for one night"

I do realise and I wouldn't propose sedation in these situations - a long-haul flight is a special situation - no one can leave, it's stressful for many and the impact of bad behaviour/noise is amplified hugely due to the close proximity - it's not comparable with any of the other examples. It wouldn't be just for my convenience either - but the flight crew, the other passengers and even the child - it's much better to sleep through 8 hours of flying that to stay awake. Reply to this

I would never drug my child for the convience of myself or others.

I wouldnt mind though, if all the parents are put in a certain part of the plane. In fact, it would be a relief. People complaining, more than doubles the already exhausting job of parenting.

I also understand why Jen would be opposed to this segregation. I consider it to be less than ideal, because isolation is the greatest cause of depression in women, and depression does not make us better mothers. Also, children need a lot of attention and the more adults that provide the better. As in, 'It takes a whole village to bring up a child' philisophy. But, being constantly harassed in an child unfriendly society is not good for either parents or children, so sad but true that segration is the best option available to us.

I do realise and I wouldn't propose sedation in these situations - a long-haul flight is a special situation - no one can leave, it's stressful for many and the impact of bad behaviour/noise is amplified hugely due to the close proximity -

But, you mentioned before that you use ear plugs, eye mask, drug yourself .... during long haul flights. Surely, this is enough to dull even the effects of the seat kicking? I think, you might be letting kids bug you a bit more than they warrent.

Reply to this

I take you point Mel - and do agree even the best parents can have days when there children become uncontrollable and vice-versa. I've seen my friends' angelic children having horror days - it happens to the best of them!

Just a point of clarification re my memory of having young children around - this is a very clear memory and not a distant childhood one. When I was 20 years old, my two brothers were aged 11 and 9. My father was away a lot on business and thus the two older children (myself and my sister who is 2.5 years younger) had to share the duties with the two youngest ones. It gave both my sister and I a strong understanding of the pressures and work involved in being a parent - and that pressure and work is very, very considerable.

Interestingly, neither me nor my sister have any children, nor is it our intention. We discussed this a few years ago and the reason for our decision was the same - we both knew of the immense work involved in being a parent and each decided on pursuing a different course in life.

So it may not have been an actual parenting situation that my sister and I were involved with, but it was much closer than many people would presume. Reply to this