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Chinese politics

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A discussion.
14 years ago, July 12th 2009 No: 21 Msg: #79210  

14 years ago, July 12th 2009 No: 22 Msg: #79211  

Firstly, you seem to provoke the relationship between tibetan people and Han Chinese(actually not just Han).



Tourists avoiding China or avoiding giving money to the Chinese government is a non violent demonstation.

I think it is discrimination against certain groups in China that is provoking the conflict. Discrimination in society will always cause conflict. Our countries in Europe have learned that the hard way and it is taking us a long time to fix it. But, democracy is a good start.

You are not welcome to China.


How do you know that?

The best way not supporting Chinese army is staying out of China


Maybe going there is a good way to support freedom and democracy. We are products of it afterall and we can show by our presence that we and our lifestyles are not something to be feared.

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14 years ago, July 12th 2009 No: 23 Msg: #79213  

14 years ago, July 13th 2009 No: 24 Msg: #79312  

I do not like those foreigners who break Chinese law (The Anti-Secession Law). If they break Chinese law in China, they should be punished. At this point, I support the gov.


But, what types of punishments should they received and what crimes should they be handed out for? Granted, the punishments foreigners would receive for crimes such as peacefully promoting human rights standards in China would be a lot less severe than what would happen to a Chinese person, but only because the media eyes of democratic countries are looking on.
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14 years ago, February 21st 2010 No: 25 Msg: #104387  
N Posts: 10
mell, I sure know where you are trying to go. I know you wish that every government could treat their people like the US government does but not like the US government does to people of other countries. I know you wish all people in this world can live a life like that in many western countries. sadly, people in many countries in this world can not live like that because many reasons (and some you know better than us). many many people in this world have to worry about how they can feed their childern tonight. before the end of this world, probably there will be countries that will never catch up with todays wealthy countries, but luckly, chinese are on the right track and we can say there will be one day when everyone there can live better than those in most, if not all, countries. before you talk about the tibetan and uyghur issues, go there and take a look yourself. think twice before you belive. there are chinese haters and there are also chinese lovers. there are people out there who does this propaganda against chinese all day long. so what. ask if it bothers chinese? btw, when i say chinese, i mean everyone in china, including most tibetans and uyghurs. as an FYI, they are called zangzu and weizu people in china.
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14 years ago, February 21st 2010 No: 26 Msg: #104393  

...in this world have to worry about how they can feed their childern tonight.


They wouldnt need to worry about this, if the world was fairer. Apparently, there is enough money in the world for everybody to be able to afford a a villa and 2 cars.

...probably there will be countries that will never catch up with todays wealthy countries,


I think they potentically can catch up. Many of them are rich in natural resources. If they had better governments who would put legislation in place to protect 'their' people from exploitation, instead of allowing the most sleezy industries to do what they want, as long as the governent gets enough money out of it.

...chinese are on the right track and we can say there will be one day when everyone there can live better than those in most,...


Oppression is going to cost the Chinese one day. People these days are finding out what their rights as humans are, and how much force will be needed to continue to oppress them?

...there are chinese haters and there are also chinese lovers. ...


Well, China is fun for tourists because it is full of things that tourists find interesting. It is also a pit of human rights abuses. Neither of these things indicate Chinese lovers and Chinese haters. That is way to dramatic a conclusion to come to.

...before you talk about the tibetan and uyghur issues, go there and take a look yourself. ...


Nothing to see for myself, if I am not even allowed into Tibet without a guide. I wouldnt be allowed to speak with any Tibetans and visa versa. I will go there when things improve, as far as personal freedom for me and the Tibetans is concerned.

... ask if it bothers chinese?


Well, it is hard to tell what bothers and doesnt bother the Chinese, because so far only the more nationalist ones have spoken on these forums. They mostly seem to be either aggressive or defensive, where human rights issues and China are concerned. Reply to this

14 years ago, February 21st 2010 No: 27 Msg: #104458  
N Posts: 10
its nice that you think there are enough money for everyone to have two cars. until now, it seems that nobody has ever handed chinese people cars yet. millions of chinese are working hard day and night to earn their own cars though. (btw, when every chinese does have two cars, it's gonna to be a nightmare.) there are people who take everyting for granted. unfortuanately, many many people in this world have to fight hard to just feed themselves. I wish someday, every government could be as good (or as "fair") as we all wish, but that is not going to happen overnight. look back 50 years, your government was probably not as nice or fair as you are talking about now. the word government is just a concept. the chinese government or any other government you are refering here is not run by some creatures from another planet; they are run by regular chinese or the locals of that country. I wish they could be run by the FAIRER people you are talking about though😊 some countries have tried to impose a "good" government to other countries, which so far seems not working at all. aside from the millions of people who have been killed during that process, every single problem that they were claiming to solve is still there. I don't care if their intention is good or not; what i see is the mess they have left to the very people they claimed to rescue. talk to the locals of every single country that you wish to "help." I bet you would get more complaints than this. as to tibet, I see chinese government is the only one who put all the resources into the province to develop it. nobody else has ever put in a penny to help the people there, including the british people who once occupied tibet (they took a lot though. look at their museums).

it is interesting that you say you were not allowed into Tibet without a guide. as I know, Tibet is just like any other province in china. it is tightly controled, but not as tight as you describe. china is one of the top destinations for worldwide tourists and tibet is one of the top tourist destinations within china. each year, millions of tourists go to china and tibet. even if the government wants to monitor all of them, they don't have the resource to do that. more importantly, many people are just not that important to chinese government as they think they are. as i know, if you can get to beijing, you can take a train or airplane and get to tibet easily. tibet is not a country inside china, no one will check anything if you go via a domastic route. do a google and see how many foreign tourists in tibet every year. if it is true that you were denied entering china, then it means that you are probably on the watch list of the chinese government. I believe there are a few people or organizations who are not allowed to enter china. if you are one of them, I can't help you.
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14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 28 Msg: #104480  
N Posts: 18
Hello E Li,
I cann't agree more!
In China, every tibetan can speak Tibetan Language. Look at the world, how many Hawaiian people can speak Hawaiian language? (No offence to US. )
This can say sth.
Regards.
Reply to this

14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 29 Msg: #104487  

I cann't agree more!


Id say E Li has a very defeatist attitude. Because some things did not work in the more democratic countries, is not a reason to avoid moving forward. It is as if everything is an excuse to put up a resistance to putting a stop to the torture, unfair trials, organ harvesting, and the prejudice against the minorities in China etc.

...it is interesting that you say you were not allowed into Tibet without a guide. as I know, Tibet is just like any other province in china. it is tightly controled, but not as tight as you describe.


It is in fact that bad. We are not allowed in without a guide, and are not allowed to talk with Tibetans while there.

if it is true that you were denied entering china, then it means that you are probably on the watch list of the chinese government.


Not sure where this comment fits in. It is a bit weird. But, tourists who visit China do need a separate Tibet permit and a guide to visit Tibet. I dont know why you would argue against this fact. How to get the Tibet permit is a regular disucssion topic on TravelBlog.

I can't help you.


This is just another very weird comment. This thread is in no way an appeal for help from you. And I have been to China. Can we get back to talking about the subject at hand now.
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14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 30 Msg: #104546  
N Posts: 18
US Full-body scans the people from some countries due to terrorism. China does this due to separatism and terrorism. I full support that.
AS for the minorities in China, you can ask China's Zhuang, Hui, Manchu people etc, what's their opinion?
Do not sit in your office, and daydream.
Regards. Reply to this

14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 31 Msg: #104548  

China does this due to separatism and terrorism.


Wouldnt the risk of separatism decrease a lot, if the minorities were being treated fairly.

AS for the minorities in China, you can ask China's Zhuang, Hui, Manchu people etc, what's their opinion?


Yeah, I will if they take part in this discussion. Are you one of them? If not, are they likely to take part in this discussion?

Do not sit in your office, and daydream.


What is it with these weird comment, that this discussion is being sprinkled with. I dont have an office. Would you stay with the topic subject, and avoid making comments that dont make any sense at all. Daydreaming???
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14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 32 Msg: #104551  
N Posts: 18
Wouldnt the risk of separatism decrease a lot, if the minorities were being treated fairly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FYI, My wife is a Mongolian.
Are u a Chinese minorities? Reply to this

14 years ago, February 22nd 2010 No: 33 Msg: #104559  

Are u a Chinese minorities?


No. But, you already knew that, didnt you? Well, maybe not. I am from Ireland, and both of my parents are Irish.

Anyway, on with the discussion about prejudice... Reply to this

14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 34 Msg: #104781  
N Posts: 10
Thank you, hehe. BTW, I'm from Nei Mongal😊

Mell, I finally got some time aside the work that pays me. Let's talk.

I guess I got a little excited. It's not a defeatist attitude. It's a fed-up attitude. Too many people make their judgments without learning the basics, and too many people try to lecture chinese.

Let's come down. You said that "because some things did not work in the more democratic countries, is not a reason to avoid moving forward." I guess you are referring to the status in Tibet. I assume you don't have a question about the legitimacy of Chinese ruling in Tibet. If you do, you will have to consult with your government, because a majority of today's countries recognize the legal ruling of china over Tibet. I don't want to go too deep on this issue because I did not major in history or politics and I hate researching.

Now, let's take a look at the improvements of Tibet. I'm not trying to lecture anyone here. I'm an engineer. let's talk about pure numbers. I did some search over the internet and found the following numbers about Tibet. Because of your prejudice against chinese government, I did not use any numbers from official chinese governmental sources. Note that for some topics I also used Indian information for comparison. the numbers appear first are the statistics about Tibet.


illiteracy: 1950's - about 100%!((MISSING)only the highest-ranked Tibetan monks memorized scriptures rather than learned to read them); 2000 - 32.5%! (MISSING) Literacy rate in India in 2007: 66%! (MISSING)
Formal school: 1950 - about 0; 2000 - over 3,000 schools with several institutions of higher learning (in Lhasa)
Population: 1969 - 1.4805 million; 2000 - 2.62 million
GDP: Tibet's GDP was expected to reach 43.7 billion yuan (about $6.3 billion) in 2009, up 170 percent from that in 2000 and posting an annual growth of 12.3 percent over the past nine years. That is about $3000 per capita. In the same year, per-capita income in India is $1033.
Mortality: 1950 - 28 per 1000; 2000 - 6.6 per 1000. India mortality rate was 8.49 per 1000 in 2003.


So from which aspect you came up the conclusion that it is not moving forward?

In terms of tibetan culture:

Religion: Tibetans are completely free to practice Tibetan Buddhism, although I think they are not allowed to follow Dalai Lama. To me, this is totally reasonable because Dalai Lama is a violent separatist. Chinese government has certain regulations over certain religions and these regulations not just apply to Tibetans, but to all chinese. From this respective, you need to save us all. However, as long as you don’t practice an illegal religion concerning national security, every chinese is free to choose their religion. Many Han chinese actually practice Tibetan Buddhism, including the famous movie star Jet Li.

Language: there are schools teach tibetan all over tibet. However, if we use our common sense, in today’s society, I guess not many parents want their children learn tibetan instead of chinese and english. Otherwise, they will probably end up in temples whining about their life forever. On the other hand, I’m always curious that people like you want tibetans to stick on their language. Why is that? You need some people to remain poor and uncompetitive just so that rich tourists like you can have something fun to watch? Why is that you don’t complain that english-speaking countries have been extinguishing the cultures of all other peoples using their language? If learning a useful language is extinguishing their own culture, then I really need to save myself first. It was my parents and the chinese education system that forced me to study english in the old days. however, I'm actually grateful that I could learn english and because of it, I'm not left behind by the society.

Human rights: other than the religion problem you are talking about, which “human right” problem of tibetan people in your mind does not exist in other chinese provinces or any other developing countries? There are Han protesters outside china as well, why is that you only pick on Tibet? I don’t want to repeat what I said in the previous posts. Chinese government may not meet everyone’s expectations, but which one does? Compare to most developing countries, I actually think china is doing much better. This does not mean there is no room to improve. Actually, many many chinese have been fighting for their basic rights. I personally am not satisfied with many aspects of the way how the government runs this country, but I look at both pros and cons.

In addition to common sense, the only things I put up here are pure facts that are available publicly online. Why is that you don't look?

Here are the references I used for the numbers. Please note that this is not a scientific study, but you are more than welcome to point out any mistake you see.

literacy in India: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India
GDP by country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Wikipedia - Tibet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet
Unescap.org - Tibet: http://www.unescap.org/esid/psis/population/database/chinadata/tibet.htm
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/tibet/pro-education.htm
http://www.freetibet.org/about/education
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14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 35 Msg: #104796  
10 posts merged into this topic from: Prejudice Reply to this

14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 36 Msg: #104797  

Mell, I finally got some time aside the work that pays me. Let's talk.


I already gave my opinions about this. Anyway, the thread is about prejudice in general and not just a discussion about China, so I moved a few posts to this thread which is especially about Chinese politics, so you can discuss specifics about this there.
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14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 37 Msg: #104798  

Now, let's take a look at the improvements of Tibet. I'm not trying to lecture anyone here. I'm an engineer. let's talk about pure numbers.


Would you also post pure numbers here about Taiwan. Reply to this

14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 38 Msg: #104818  
B Posts: 97
interesting all those questions about how china going to save us from an economic meltdown, if you live in the us ì bet you know wha ì am talking about. If you live in australia, you wouldn't have even noticed ìt because china saved us from it. Time to learn mandarin my friends (or just bad cantonese) like myself. Reply to this

14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 39 Msg: #104819  
I dont think China is quite that powerful, Scott. Everybody gets lucky now and again. They have so much opposition from the inside that I doubt they would be able to withstand either an economic crisis or an attack from the outside. They are nowhere near solving their political problems, let alone establishing a protection system to the level of one like NATO. Reply to this

14 years ago, February 24th 2010 No: 40 Msg: #104864  
N Posts: 18
hi Mell, can you speak Irish Language? Or are you using Irish Language in daily life?
To be honest, small cultures and languages will meet some challenges when communications and transportations are so convenient. This is a global issue.
As for China, it's making progress in every aspect. I am happy with this. Reply to this

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