Overland to Jordan

Thanks Mell,

Some interesting points. In your first examples, about the foreigners in Iran, it seems to me that these people had preconceptions of their own before going to Iran, that perhaps ran contra to those written in the Lonely Planet or seen on CNN; as if they went to Iran to clarify their skepticism of the perceived view.

After all, as you know, going to Iran is hardly something one does, or indeed can do on a whim! So the reasons behind peoples visits are usually deeper than for example, a visit to The Pyramids of Giza. Regardless, research involving 'someone who met someone who said...' Unfortunately lacks academic credibility and is dismissed legally as 'hearsay your honour';-)

So what did you think before, during, and after your visit to Iran?

As for 'dismissing the political interests of a country because one is having a nice time' - this is a moral dilemma we all must contend with whilst traveling, and are all certainly guilty of, to some extent. For example, on the whole, I think people in the Midwestern United States are very friendly and could never imagine they would illegally occupy nations around the world, imprison them in Orange Jumpsuits and torture them. Would vocally criticizing the policies of a nation we considered unethical allow us to have a nice time in those places with a clear conscience?

The second point you make is also very interesting; I often ask myself when and if Israel (with or without the US) will bomb Iran. Iran's position next to occupied Iraq and occupied Afghanistan may make them sleep a little uneasy at night perhaps? After all, isn't Iran secretly making and stockpiling Nuclear weapons to unleash on the civilized world?

As for the dangers of going outside in western countries after 9pm. Here in Canada, they recently had a 'Reclaim the Night' march, where women marched around the city at night, to protest the authorities advice for them not to leave their homes after dark, for fear of attack. I know similar marches have taken place in the UK, and were a big part of the feminist movement in the 70s.

Your last example is also great; however there are many hegemonic rules and regulations around the world that govern, for example women smoking. In South Korea, where I lived, no 'self-respecting' women would be seen smoking in public. It isn't an official state legislated law, but a hegemonic culturally rule...
So (more of a sociological/philosophical question): does that make these social 'laws' any less discriminatory?

Thanks again Mell. Reply to this

I havent read you whole post yet Jason. I will read the rest of it tomorrow. Reply to this

Hi Diannas

Hearsay? I just Googled the story you mention and found this in the heraldscotland
Published on 17 Oct 2007; SHOCKING...FACT!



Prosecutors in Jordan yesterday charged two men with the kidnapping and rape of two British women in fields near the Israeli border. Four other men were charged with attempted rape and attempted kidnapping.

The alleged attack was the second incident involving assaults on foreign women in Jordan in a month.

Police said the women were raped early on Saturday in a vegetable grove in a town in the central Jordan Valley.

Prosecutors said police were searching for two other suspects believed to be hiding in Jordan. All the accused are Jordanian and could face the death penalty if convicted.

An investigation found the two female students could not find transport back to Amman after visits to the Jordan Valley and the nearby Dead Sea.

The women accepted an invitation from a Jordanian woman to spend the night at her house, a judicial official said. He said four drunk men sought to enter the house by force to kidnap the Britons.

The Jordanian woman sneaked them out a back door accompanied by her brother and his friend, the official added. On the road, the brother and his friend allegedly raped the Britons and dumped them in the vegetable grove.

The two women were studying Arabic at Damascus University, Syria, and came to Jordan for a visit during the Muslim festival of Eid. Reply to this

Hi Jason,

BTW - you are my new hero! I read some of your travel blogs. Contratulations on your wedding and new baby. I love your writing style and the photos you have taken are very impressive. Have you considered a job in journalism or photography or both?

I've always wanted to go to the Middle East and I'm very dissapointed that it's not coming together as I had envisioned. I just don't want to put my life or my health in jeapordy for the thrill of travel. I may be a little disillusioned at the moment because a friend of mine was recently gunned down and shot execution style in Mexico last week. I worked with the guy for about 5 years, but I think he got himself into something that he shouldn't have, namely the cartel.

The LP guidebooks - I got from the library. I try to research before I buy my ticket and travel guides. You are right - the girls were on the Jordon side of the border. Here is the quote from the email I received from the Canadian that was there.

"I may have sounded a bit harsh about my experience in Egypt and Jordan but as much of it was amazing their were certainly more difficult times for a place that should be well connected. One woman we met in Jordan and crossed into Israel with; she was raped at the border on the Jordanian side. A gut feeling something was wrong and turning around 3 times on my part could not help her or find where this was occuring. Needless to say she just wanted to " get the **** out of the country" when she came running up to me and my buddy as we crossed into Israel. The stories go on with horrible food issues, paying 10 x's what the locals pay, "the pyramids are closed routine" which of course I have heard all over the world,....yadayadayada. But of course endless great times as well. Better to see the positive but I wanted to be forthrite with you as I have heard endless bad stories of single women travels in Egypt. I have a friend who rented a car in Turkey and drove through Iraq as a single woman!! She loved it and had no problems on her own..."

Where would you recommend I travel this winter? You have been to so many places. I would like to go somewhere inexpensive, fairly safe for a woman, get some WOW factor in and a comfortable climate.. i.e. warm. I read your blog about Jaiselmer and the camel safari. This is where my photo is from - the 3 day camel safari out of Jaiselmere, India. I'm seriously thinking about going back to India - I felt safe there. I just hate to go back to where I've already been. It's just never the same as the first time.

You have been of great assistance. Thank you.

Dianna

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So what did you think before, during, and after your visit to Iran?

Some things didnt change. My visit to Iran is was not the first I know about it. One thing that did strike me was the feeling of peace and innocence about the place. Despite everything, there is a sort of quietness there.

Unfortunately lacks academic credibility and is dismissed legally as 'hearsay your honour';-)

I read a quote recently that is an ideal response to that. Something about refute the refutations in an endless cycle. I would look it up, but the book is in is over 1000 pages long with small print.....

But you can deny any acacemic whatever as much as you want, but for me as a women, womens rights and issues are real and not just something to have academic discussions about.

Same for the others groups in society. This is their real life.

Your comments about Israel: I dont know if they will bomb Iran or not. My guess is that if they have evidence that there is a serious and imminent threat they will.



One of the biggest problems I find with being a member of one of those groups in society is the challange of talking about the issues. You have been at the butt end of both blatant and subtle sexism(rascism, anti sematism....) all you life, but despite how this makes you feel you have the even bigger challange of having to talk about it in a way that wont have it dismissed and/or rejected.

I do have plenty of achademics I can toss your way about womens issues both in Iran and the west and maybe I will now and again......
But, when it comes down to it, you can refute and refute the refutes and then refute the refutes if you want......

As for the dangers of going outside in western countries after 9pm. Here in Canada, they recently had a 'Reclaim the Night' march, where women marched around the city at night, to protest the authorities advice for them not to leave their homes after dark, for fear of attack. I know similar marches have taken place in the UK, and were a big part of the feminist movement in the 70s.

Your last example is also great; however there are many hegemonic rules and regulations around the world that govern, for example women smoking. In South Korea, where I lived, no 'self-respecting' women would be seen smoking in public. It isn't an official state legislated law, but a hegemonic culturally rule...
So (more of a sociological/philosophical question): does that make these social 'laws' any less discriminatory?

More stuff that cant be easily responded to. Here is an attempt to put it into a couple of sentences.
This needling of women about everything they say, wear and do goes back a long way in the history of gender politics. It has being incorporated into all societies by various means and been kept there by various means. Even some women defend it, becasue many have learned to live with it and gain what they can from it.

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I may be a little disillusioned at the moment because a friend of mine was recently gunned down and shot execution style in Mexico last week. I worked with the guy for about 5 years, but I think he got himself into something that he shouldn't have, namely the cartel.

It is hardly surprising that you are a bit freaked about travelling at the moment. Anyone would be if such a terrible thing happened to somebody they know. 😞

You are right - the girls were on the Jordon side of the border. Here is the quote from the email I received from the Canadian that was there.

I dont think the details about where it happened are important. It is simply a horrible thing to happen to any women, no matter where she is. But I think because of the culture in the Milddle East which keeps men separate from women and where you can refuse to ever be alone with a man will cause rape to be highly unlikely.

I'm seriously thinking about going back to India - I felt safe there.

If you were able to handle India as a women, you can handle the middle east. It certainly wont be worse there, as regards women travellers issues. Reply to this

Hello,

I've been reading this thread with a combination of surprise, and disdain.

I currently have in my posession "unrefundable" plane tickets for my preteen daughter and myself to Cairo. We're backpacking Egypt, Jordan, and Israel - March 2010.

For MONTHS I have been researching my Itinerary, and I would have to say this was the most negative post I have seen in regard towards "safety" for women.

As you can well imagine, I'm getting a lot of criticism (by some family members) for traveling these countries with my innocent daughter in tow.

Some family is aghast, and the rest are amazed wishing they were in my shoes.

I'm fulfilling a lifelong dream to visit these countries. Do I give into fear? Do I play the "what if" game until I drive myself into a case of nerves?

Naturally, I have to use common sense. I weigh the odds, and RESEARCH. What are the risks in visiting these countries? Of course, I also have the added burden of being responsible for my daughter as well.

Many things on my mind here...

When all is taken into account, I'm sorely reminded of a recent event... The shootings at the Ft. Hood Army base in Texas. On a typical sunny day, on one of the largest military bases in the U.S. where one is safe/surrounded by fellow soldiers, 13 people died unexpectedly. My daughter and I were due on that base for a field trip the following day. My point here is that we COULD have been killed. My naysaying family would have never batted an eye about us going THERE.

Do I cancel our trip because of a rape story? Or do I arm myself with knowlege, and use common sense while on this trip?

I'll be posting more on this board as my trip draws closer. I have many questions about our border route crossings.

As for being in a country where women aren't treated like us "Westerners"... This is my two-cents:

I WELCOME dressing modestly, and covering my head if so need be. This is part of the EXPERIENCE. My daughter and I are cracking the books, studying up on history and learning everything we can about the cultures we are visiting.

Anyways, if the original poster is traveling around the same time, drop me a line. I'm not opposed to traveling with other women as we make our trek. The more the merrier!

Helen

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Hi Mell,

Just because I'm willing to cover my head and to dress modestly doesn't mean I agree with oppression to women. I am in THEIR COUNTRY after all, and it would be presumptious for me to impose my "western" upbringing/religious/political beliefs on THEIR turf. I'm there to travel, learn about their cultures and to move on. Part of my safety plan is to NOT bring attention to myself. I travel with meekness. If I'm treated like a second class citizen (for being female) then so be it. It just helps my daughter and myself to appreciate the freedom's we have in our country that we tend to take for granted.

Helen Reply to this

Hi Mell again...

Why should I concern myself on whether I'm "irritating" someone more progressively minded? I don't understand this comment. Or even how my actions would cause irritation to others?

I don't know if I'm "bending over backwards" to learn about Middle Eastern culture. It's just common sense to learn a few Arabic phrases, and to research their customs. Figured it wouldn't hurt to know how to ask where the U.S. Embassy is, food, water, bus station, etc. Dress in advance to make sure my arms, and legs are covered, scarf for the mosques I visit, etc.

I was concerned about other female travelers wanting to reconsider their trip to Jordan due to a rape incident. That's why I had commented on my "non refundable" plane tickets. Like a boat bouncing from one wave to another, I could go back and forth on this trip -- should I go, or shouldn't I?

I would hate to think that I had passed up an opportunity due to an unfortunate event. Basically from most other threads, the majority is in FAVOR of women traveling alone, even through Jordan. This is why I made the decision to go -- based on other female travelers dispelling the myths.

If anything is garnered from this thread is the confirmation that I need to be extra careful. I've considered a tour group for Jordan from Eilat anyway. Never really planned to do Jordan alone. I'm only going there to see Petra. I have a few more months to get my ducks in a row. I'm one of those people that enjoy the details involved when it comes to travel planning which may appear that I'm bending over backwards. My efforts had paid off, saving me well over $1000 on our plane tickets!

Have you traveled the Middle East? If so, what is your personal opinion?

Helen
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Helen, here is a link to a blog I made about my trip to Iran. There is also a photo of what I wore there in the blog.
null blog 243209 I am not sure if you need to be quite as severe with the clothes in Jordan or not. As well as that, Petra is used to tourists, so anything you do that is a bit different to what would be acceptable from local women will likely be forgiven and/or understood there. Also, there are blogs here on TravelBlog that are specifically about Jordan and some about Petra too. And, if you post a question in the Middle East Forum, it will likely attract folk who have specifically been to Petra. 😊



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