Traffic fine in the US - can I simply ignore it as I am leaving the country soon or will that come back to me somehow?
Ben, the vast majority of what I've read above is inaccurate and misleading advice based on speculation and conjecture. I advise you to seek an attorney in Hawaii for competent advice and get the issue resolved without worrying about a criminal history or immigration problems in the future. But the cost of an attorney consultation may, in and of itself, be more than the price of the ticket. That being said, I highly doubt you're charged with a "crime." It's much more likely it's a traffic citation, which falls under an entirely different arena of law. Note that, usually, if you contest a traffic ticket and lose, you have to pay an additional fine and court costs (which often amount to more than the original ticket). On the other hand, some judges will listen to common sense and dismiss the charge with a court warning.
To the other people who responded with such shock and outrage, may I remind you that the laws are created by the people and are in place for a reason. In fact, according to the Honolulu police department, jaywalking results in 28 pedestrian deaths a year and 560 injuries. While it may seem like a minor issue, and certainly seems trivial in the grand scheme of things, it's the law. And in this case, by Ben's own admission, he violated the law. Unknowingly or not. And that's simply not a defense to most violations of law. That, too, is for a reason. You can imagine the situation where someone didn't believe rape was a crime, or that beating a woman was a crime, etc. So while we can all bitch and cry about the inequity of the situation where an "innocent" person unknowingly violates a law, that doesn't get us any where and, in the end, we created these laws and we still want these laws (otherwise they would have been changed). While I'm disappointed in the officer's reaction, I can understand his frustration with writing you a ticket for an offense that you committed, and then you arguing with him and trying to talk him out of it. You cannot do that.
Sorry if I come off as abrasive, and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but this is how I see the situation. I do wish Ben the best of luck in trying to resolve the ticket without having to pay the steep fine for such a minor offense.
Reply to this Jason,
I totally agree with what you said about always having to worry about in the future. I think that's what it all boils down to in the end. Plus of course the whole issue of accepting the law of the country of course, but that's harder to grasp and somewhat ambiguous for a jaywalking ticket, where the case is not really clear-cut, although it is the still the law.
I think I will try and appeal the fine, as I guess I dont have anything to loose. And if that doesnt work I will probably just have to cough it up and pay it.
The worst part is that I didnt really learn anything useful from the whole incidence. If you get, say, a speeding ticket you know that you have done wrong and that you could have harmed or even killed someone by doing 70 in a neighbourhood street, so the fine works and is useful, because you got to hit people where it hurts or else they never learn. But what do you really learn from getting a $130 ticket for jaywalking?
Reply to this Laure and David,
thanks for the great post, the balanced view and the information about the jaywalking deaths in Honolulu. I could follow up by asking how many deaths are caused by it being legal to drive a motorbike without a helmet, but of course a flaw in one area of the law doesnt mean that jaywalking should be made legal as well.
I do realise of course that ignorance is no argument against committing an offense in a foreign country. However, I dare to say that in the case of jaywalking there is no way a European citizen can know that it is an offense in the US. In the case of obviously wrong conduct like stealing or even murder, there is no question at all that these are wrong, even if for some bizaar reason there was a country in the world where this was allowed. The same is true for moral wrongs, things that are wrong in any culture, for instance taking advantage of other people.
But in the case of jaywalking, it is simply not illegal in many countries of Europe and indeed around the world, and people jaywalk their entire life, every single day. There was no way I could have known that it is illegal in the US. Would I otherwise have walked across the street right in front of the police car that I obviously noticed? Ah well, all this leads to nothing anyway, done is done.
In the end, it seems to be a question of far you want to police your own people/ nation, of how much of a nanny state you want to be, or if you let the people make the decisions for themselves - in the UK for instance, it is perfectly legal to jaywalk, and in Germany it gets you a 10 Euro fine, but really only on paper, as the law is hardly ever enforced as I see it.
Thanks also for the tip that an appeal might incur a few. Strange as that seems, I will check that before I contest the ticket and make sure I dont make a bad situation worse!
Reply to this I was down at the Canada/US border yesterday - Always a charm - The U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) people told us to park the car and come inside to fill out some forms (as I have a British passport). We milled about in the waiting area; FOX NEWS was beaming down from a flat-screen HDTV. Jennifer (who is 9 months pregnant) asks if she can use the 'public' bathroom. "Why are you here!?” The border guard in leather jacket and dark glasses barks at her. "I'm with my husband",
"Why is HE here?"
"They told us to come inside and fill out an I-94",
"Just push it!"
"What?"
"The Door, Just PUSH it!" He lounges by his desk and presses a button which releases the lock on the door.
I was actually gonna ask if someone can switch the channel on the TV...now I REALLY wanna ask. Just then another Border Cop shouts out my surname and then tosses a green form at me. After he asks me WHY I wanna cross the 49th Parallel (we're gonna be in the states for all of an hour to pick up the mother-in-law from the train station), After the first round of paperwork is complete, After he's taken finger prints from both my hands, After he's taken my photograph, I ask him...
"I have a German friend who got a fine for Jaywalking in Hawaii, and he's thinking about not paying, will it affect his ability to return to the US?"
YES! It's called a public charge, he's broken the law.
I smile, "So you'll be able to see that on this computer, then?"
"REGARDLESS, It's WRONG and we don't want people like that in our country!"
The Blackfoot Confederacy or Niitsítapi (meaning "original people") is the collective name of three “First Nations” in Alberta on the north side and one “Native American” tribe in Montana on the south side of this border. These groups shared a common language and culture, had treaties of mutual defense, and freely intermarried. They now live on RESERVATIONS on either side of a border drawn "neatly" (and in complete disregard of those people who lived there) along the 49th parallel in a treaty drawn up in Paris over 200 years ago, which ended a war between Great Britain and the separating colonies. And it is on this line, that has usurped the Blackfoot's land, that I now stand.
As he stood there wearing a gun on his hip, a night stick, a can of mace and a Taser (not bad for an office job). I wanted him to define “we”, I wanted him to describe “our” and I wanted him to tell me how HE fit into all this!
When he was on trial for his life in Jerusalem, part of Adolf Eichmann’s defense was that nobody ever told him that what he was doing was wrong. I want it as matter of public record that what these border guards are doing is WRONG!
He left to do more paperwork. When he returned I probed him a little more. “What was that offence called again?” I asked, “a public
?”.
“A Public charge”, he said, and continued: “If he disregards our laws, how do we know your friend is gonna leave the country after ninety days, how do we know he is not gonna try and work in this country?”
“Yeah, how do you know he’s not going to Jaywalk his way across the country?” I replied He didn’t see the humour.
He gave me a look that suggested he may have wanted to use one or all of the toys that dangled from his hip. I thought at that moment how it was a good thing there were laws in place to deter him from doing that. Otherwise I’d likely find myself lying in my own vomit and urine, a sodden mass of muscles that no longer worked. Afterwards I'd likely find myself facing charges of resisting arrest, quite possibly assaulting a border guard, and worst of all, contempt of cop."
Anyway, on the issue of “jaywalking” in particular, It is correct that in the UK there is no such offence because pedestrians in the process of crossing at (unmarked) road junctions have priority, as a matter of common law. In North America the CAR is king.
So as per my previous suggestion, Ben; After my charmed visit to the border yesterday I’ve decided to change my original advice.
Don’t pay them a penny! Laure and David are spot on; there is no need to worry about criminal history or immigration problems in the future.
Reclaim the streets!
For some perverse reason I think it would be fascinating if I could conduct a six month ethnography in one of these places...so rich that it is in power, nationalism, hegemony and ideology et al. Though In reality I'd probably last about 6 minutes!
“If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal” Emma Goldman
Reply to this Reclaim the streets!
... something an anarchist would say 😉
I'd say "Peace of Mind" is worth more that $130 for sure.
It's been more than 2 years and I'm still thinking about the traffic fine I haven't paid.
I was caught over-speeding on my mom's car on mother's day on our way home from the beach by a
speed camera. My mother received the traffic infringement letter on the mail two weeks later.
I signed a "Statutory Declaration" form stating that I was the driver at the time of the offence and willing to pay the fine. I still haven't heard from the transport department 'til now.
Although it may not be considered as a serious crime, I still kept thinking what "if" the traffic violation escalates to a higher level (for some other rules/laws I'm not aware of) and keeps compounding interest rate every year it remains unpaid ?
I am now contemplating of ringing the transport department just to get that peace of mind.
One can't just run on pure emotions. You have to be level headed and rational when it comes to dealing with international laws.
My advice is, do the right thing - whatever you think that is 😉 Cheers
Reply to this Jason,
awesome post, you should put that story as a separate blog! I always find it amazing how a single intense experience like the one you just had changes can change your whole attitude to things (or make/ spoil your day). It certainly made you come around 180 degrees there :-)
And thanks so much for asking, brave man! I am well aware that in these situations you dont really want to stand out from the crowd and arouse any kind of suspicion - after all the border guard doesnt have to give you a reason for turning you away I believe, so that is much appreciated. And I take it from his response that they have no way of seeing it in their computer...
But of course I have to agree with the border guard. A guy who crosses the street in an unmarked place, just how do you know he is not going to be an illegal immigrant? Or walk around blowing people up all over the place? I mean, the criminal tendency is certainly there - once you jaywalk, there is no way of telling where that person will stop or what he is capable of!
Reply to this Sorry about your luck Ben. You have received plenty of advice, and mine would only be redundant. I hope your appeal is successful, if that's the route you take.
What I'm finding some interesting in this conversation is the nearly overwhelming sentiment that jaywalking doesn't matter/is petty/pointless etc. Now, don't get me wrong - I think a $130 citation is ridiculous and I feel a warning would have sufficed plenty in this situation - but I grew up in a city where jaywalking is not only illegal, you were so darn sure you could get cited for it that you would wait at controlled intersections for the proper cue to cross even if there wasn't a car in sight for miles (Seattle, second only to Honolulu for the notorious citation of jaywalking although it's only an $85 fine).
It just goes to show how much issues of propriety and etiquette get instilled. See in my mind growing up, people who jaywalked were just
certain to be the same people loitering, and smoking in non-smoking sections, and littering and speeding and getting drunk in public and they probably used profanity around children too! Not that is was so much a criminal issue, but that it was a breach of courteous behavior. Just a "gate way" action to all sorts of deviancy and moral decrepitude. If you ignore the traffic laws you must certainly ignore the other laws of public decency too! So when I read about the connection drawn between minor incidents of jaywalking and criminal tendency I think for the briefest of seconds - "Well yes" and then realize the gravity of the offenses that are being postulated and shake my head "No, no, no. That's not at all right." Because it isn't the same, but you can see how with a little stretch of the imagination sprinkled with a hint of paranoia/xenophobia and mixed with a power trip (that's the key ingredient), public officials could get to that conclusion.
I'm not defending the steep fine or multiple threats of arrest - because like all local customs I feel you can't necessarily hold visitors liable if they are uninformed, and if everyone else was doing it how are you supposed to differentiate? - but I suppose I am defending the general sentiment of anti-jaywalkers everywhere, as one who has waited countless minutes of her life standing on an empty stretch of road, waiting for a light to change. 😉
Also a wonderful vignette Jason - who would
ever have guessed FOX News would have been playing in the background. I always feel like the guards along the US/Canada border are a little extra bitter about being stationed there rather than somewhere more ... notable. I take it that would be a field study where the lure of "going native" is absent? You never know...
Reply to this "One who has waited countless minutes of her life standing on an empty stretch of road, waiting for a light to change", your behaviour is perfectly understandable, since it seems you are merely conforming to a set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes your culture;-)
The Fugitive in Seattle:
Reply to this Here's the thing. Jaywalking is not a criminal offense. Therefore, it cannot be used to serve you a warrant, or arrest, or anything else if you do not pay. There is no court hearing for a pedestrian ticket. It's the same as a parking ticket. This means that the ONLY thing that can be done is it will be put on your credit report. If you plan on buying a home in the USA, it may show up on your credit report. Simple. You don't have to pay.
Reply to this Again, I find the responses and discussion here disturbing and scary. Statements like criminal offenses disappear after seven years are absurd and flat out WRONG. They stay with you for life. I'm assuming that that statement was based on a misunderstanding of the Fair Credit Reporting Act which used to limit pulling criminal records in employment background reports to seven years in certain circumstances. That limitation has been removed (although some states, like California, have stricter restrictions).
Unfounded statements like jaywalking is not a criminal offense also bother me. Teej and Niki, you haven't even seen how he was charged or under what statute/ordinance/law/rule/regulation/etc. So you simply cannot make that determination with the facts at this point, unless you're familiar with all the laws of Hawaii. I agree, it's most likely a traffic citation. But traffic citations, if unpaid, can then suspend licenses, which can result in criminal offenses (e.g., driving with a suspended license, a first degree misdemeanor in Florida punishable by 364 days in jail). As another example, if you chose to challenge it and don't show up for the hearing, depending on the law in Hawaii, you may get a bench warrant issued (different than an arrest warrant). Going so far as to advise someone that the ONLY thing that can be done is going on your credit report crosses the line into giving legal advice, which also happens to be illegal. And incorrect. There's a possibility that an unpaid jaywalking ticket could be used as a valid reason to deny you entry into the country. UNLIKELY. But it's possible. And it's legal. This is precisely why when you have a legal issue, you need to consult with competent legal counsel.
While I'm on my soapbox, may I mention that however ridiculous people think the jaywalking ticket is, just think of the fact that it's on your radar now. Won't you think twice before crossing the road? So not only did it serve the function of deterrence, but it also brought attention to the issue and other people have learned from Ben's mistake.
Reply to this I too would be extremely wary of suggestions that proposed nothing harmful could result from simply ignoring the citation.
In Seattle the perpetrator ("jaywalker") has two courses of action - pay or appeal. Not doing so
does result in a warrant out for your arrest. Whether the same applies in Hawaii I do not know, but it is certainly a possibility. Laure and David, you are right to reiterate that the offense, regardless of how minor it might seem, can lead to serious consequences if not attended to one way or another.
Reply to this Just to give a short update: I have now appealed the ticket.
I did give it a bit of a spin however, by writing it in English, and then putting it through Google Translate six or seven times (I found the Albanian to Chinese the most useful) before getting it back to English. Kind of. So the resulting gibberish I sent to the appeal court. I figured if I can't win it on "legal" grounds, I might try humour. If my letter doesn't make the judge crack up, then I don't know what else. And maybe, just maybe, they reward the effort by dropping or reducing the fine. Or maybe not. We will see.
Reply to this The illiterate foreigner tactic may backfire, though I suppose it was your only real option. A beautifully articulate persuasive argument had even less chance of success.
Anyway, you simply MUST post your appeal letter right here, right now!
Reply to this OK, sure, why the hell not? But why could it backfire, Jason? There is no law against not being able to speak the language in the US I hope? :-)
I should add however that I did some manual "brush-up" after Google Translate had done its share of the work. The "nice relax holiday" or the frequent spelling mistakes for instance are examples of me "improving" the text. Anyway, so here it goes:
Gentleman and lady!
only after four hours behind me arrival to Hawaii for nice relax holiday, get penalty for cross street a fine 130 dollar in Honolulu (I sent paper yellow to you too). I is no idea that absolutaly crossing street is crime in United States as most Europe in country no illegal, and I is not happy start to holiday. There see no traffic light and no car I walk in Honolulu. Not know how much have walk, or can cross where? Maybe you explain? I think would be warning from police guy who plus threat me with arrest enough (I very scared, and bad english, but his speak so fast and no wait).
I see because ignorence no excuse in other country and his law. But see like that, of cross street is not possibel to Europe citizens for know, that is crime in United States. If really wrong thing (steal, kill etc), of course no doubt that anywhere wrong in world. But cross street easy not illegal in Europe country, people cross street all his life, everywhre. I also see much people do like that in Hawaii. So no idea of know that he may action in United States illegal because much people do. I cross street too right before police car in Honolulu (I see police car too!), of course, I do not if know not legal in U.S.
I ask you kind, in fall delete fine for explain mention on top. I learn good lesson, and promise will not recross street in United States.
Thanks you many,
Ben Beiske
PS. Sorry for english, very bad me, I write german and use dictionary to translate for into english. Maybe possibly to answer into german or into easy english for you? Thanks you.
Reply to this I think it's superb because your main arguments aren't 'lost in translation', I particularly like this;
"There see no traffic light and no car I walk in Honolulu. Not know how much have walk, or can cross where? Maybe you explain? I think would be warning from police guy who plus threat me with arrest enough (I very scared, and bad english, but his speak so fast and no wait)."
I would also be interested whether any US legal experts could enlighten us to whether 'dumbing down' one's language in attempts to influence a legal outcome could be considered deception, fraudulent, and criminal;-)
Reply to this Yes, I went through some pain to make sure they get the main argument. But seriously, how far does one have to walk to cross a street legally? In may places, there simply isn't a traffic light or pedestrian crossing...
Reply to this Haha! That is fantastic and I think you "articulated" your points quite well.
Also enjoyed how you gave yourself a nice little 'out' for accusations of misrepresentation in that is seems you quite honestly did "write in german and use dictionary to translate for into english." That your English is otherwise impeccable, well, you never actually claimed otherwise now did you?
How far? Vehicles are
supposed to stop for pedestrians at unmarked crosswalks too, which occur at nearly all intersections whether painted or not - but very, very few do. Otherwise quite a way. Although you could just wait until there are no cops around then dash across, which is more typical behavior 😊
Reply to this Yes sure, but sometimes you are on a rural kind of road and finding the next pedestrian crossing would have you walk, say, 4 miles up the road. So there must be an interpretation of the law, how to apply in in real life...
Reply to this Ah, well usually local jaywalking laws only apply to city-centers and urban areas where intersections and street corners are commonplace, so on rural stretches of road and beyond the city limits it would be unregulated anyhow.
But I do know what you mean and my only answer is to acknowledge that efficiency tends never to be the motive behind laws and regulations in the U.S. The last time I was in Hawaii I was walking down a stretch just as you described in Kailua, and needed to cross the road without going a half or so mile out of the way. It's not a big city, but large enough to have traffic enforcement I guessed. I'm still not sure if crossing as I did was legal, but I eventually got to the other side.
Reply to this Ha,ha, congratulation Ben your appeal is really very good! It was a good idea to use google translator.
The whole story is awesome.
You get a fine for nothing and at the boarder Canada/USA the border patrol has to answer critical question. Perfect !
walter
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