back to wonder To reply to Wonder's reply to my reply - the text describes how the police physically assaulted both parties without necessary provocation. I'm not an expert in Chinese law but I very much doubt the statues give the police a free hand to assault people when and where they please. Ok they might take the old Soviet route (and increasingly US/UK route) of addng 'except in special circumstances' etc. I've read the rest of your comments and I agree from what you say that there is a risk associated with travelling in areas of China (and the same applies to almost any country) and I also applaud your commenting on this from a Chinese perspective. It was only my immediate reaction to the 'well they broke the law' attitude, which they also recieved from their embassy, that got my gander.
A Cumberland Sausage is as a very tasty spicy (well seasoned) sausage which is a traditional dish from where I was brought up - Cumberland. Thanks for asking ;-)
some words to "Anonymous" Have you ever considered why I'd spend much time on-line searching and make serveral calls to my mom's friends when I don't need the information myself? Because I know Eldar's sad experience happened due to misunderstanding and both side's lack of needed knowledge AND that could be avoided. Because I wish all travelers can enjoy their trips and I'd be happy to share them my experience and info(not just abt China)if i could help. Have you ever appreciated my effort instead of just complaining? If bad things had happened to Eldar, what should we do next? All foreigners never come to China(is that realistics?) or we do sth together to prevent that happening again? Should we ask USA(or other countries that have "DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM") gov to punish the local bus station, that travel agency and the police officer(how?)?
Complaint never makes things better while the share of experience, information and suggestion does.
NO,IT'S NOT. From the document Eldar provided, I can be sure the grassland isn't totally closed to foreigners-you only need to get a permit. If you step into a place where is CLOSED to foreigners, you'll be in big trouble.
1 my mom's friend doesn't know cos she don't need to. She told me that no foreigners EVER called them to ask for info-foreigners love traveling alone or with friends.
2 Be smart. Do you think the police station will ever give Eldar and his friends a document(as the picture above) saying y they'd get a fine if that's a trap? I've encountered a trap myself; the officer didn't give me such a document because that may become the evidence for me to charge him back.
3 There're many travel agencies that are not eligible to apply a permit for their foreign clients, and I believe the one Eldar came to is one of them. that's why they didn't tell him cos they may don't know themselves. The same with the bus station and the local ppl. So I keep saying,for your sake, to call a travel agency in a big city before you go.
4 If the local travel agency doesn't know, the bus station doesn't know, and the local people don't know, why should foreigners know? The reason is simple-they won't be charged but you will. Getting info in China may not be as handy as in developed countries, but that can never be the reason to break the law. My friend went to Xizang a couple of months ago- he went with his friends. Before he departed, he'd made everything clear and I never heard him complaining "oh, that's so complicated; why should I ever do it?" It's you not bus station sales or local students who want to visit there. But, at the same time, i think the local travel agency has responsibility.put its name down and inform others of their lack of knowledge.
How can we know if we need a permit? As you can see, even a Chinese woman can't tell you where you can or cannot travel. How can a tourist, who can't really speak the language, know it? Why do you sell a bus ticket to a place that is closed for foreigners? Why does a travel agency sends tourists to such a place without a warning? I guess this is just another way of making money out of tourists - a typical tourist trap!
two things 1 I'm sorry. Eldar, would you please delete one of my messages?(A list where foreigners normally can get a travel permit.) I've been looking for info abt foreign visitors,and today I found out that list (also found on-line) was published in 1982, which is not accurate rite now. Sorry to those who read it! Here's the info."1 There're more than 1440 cities or towns that open to foreigners where you don't a permit(just visa); 2 There're some places that partly open where you need a permit(but you can easily get it); 3 There're places that only open to foreigners with appropriate reasons like investment; that'll be hard to get a permit; 4 The other places are not open to foreigners(Pay special attention! If you accidentally step into military important places, that's huge!) If you come to places of 2,3,4 without a permit, you'll get a fine or a detention no more than 10 days at least.(Sorry to Ali) I haven't found a complete city list where foreigners don't need permits. I called my mom's friend who works in a travel agency, and she didn't have that list neither. She only told me that foreigners need permit to visit Xizang and they should be really cautious cos like Xinjiang, Xizang is a political-sensitive place. My suggestion is: Call a travel agency in a big city like Beijing Shanghai to ask for your info before you go. This is China. It has its own law. Don't disrespect it just because the law in your country is different or you don't think the law should be like that. The law is the law.
2 To Cumberland Sausage:(Are Cumberland Sausages specially delicious?) Yes, I also think the police's action is inappropriate(though I haven't found y he broke the law.) He is rude and not civilized. However, to be honest, do ppl really expect the police there is polite, english-speaking and civilized? I bet the officer Mr.Eldar met hasn't finished his high school education. Not according Eldar's description, but my knowledge of China. There're tons of ppl whose family can't afford their high school education, esp in remote towns in Xinjiang. Do you know how surprised I was when I knew they found Eldar an English teacher? I don't think many ppl here understands how much effort they may have given to find an English teacher. Still, I think it has little to do with "democracy" or "freedom". It's abt poverty.
Wonder's comments WRT Wonder's comments - on the one hand I agree with Wonder's comments (I haven't read it all) about police brutality not necessarily being a function of the political system - I heard a very scary first-handstory recently from a British Barrister about the Miami police. On the other hand, whilst Mr Eldar may have broken Chinese law, SO DID THE CHINESE POLICE WHO DEALT WITH HIM. Let's not forget that.
i am sometimes sick of democracy cries of western people, when they faced something abroad. Is the homeland(!) your relative point of freedom and democracy. How many years passed since the people in an army base has been helding (needless to say) without any proof of crime. Neither they're lucky enough to write their adventures to a weblog nor has and effect to awake millions of sleepy free and democracy believer people living in jesusland happyly. How many guns has been sold and how many spies provoked people of uncivilised and undemocratic lands by the country of freedom.
C'mon you guys, don't be just tourists wander in "cool" places. Don't put the words of freedom and democracy to your mouths that cheap.
Democracy is easy when you have 300 millions of people who are full of greed and passion to MAKE MORE MONEY and has the dream of watching superbowl live.
Don't go there! Personal Rule: Don't go to places where you can easily get in trouble. There is too much of the world that is civilized, why go to the other parts? Unless you are there as an abassador of US military might.
I only tell the truth, no matter what. To be honest(I live in Shenzhen), I seldom go out at night. If I'm out, I only go to places like shopping malls, restaurants where are full of people. Without my guy friends, i never ever take a bus home(not to mention walk home)- always cab. That costs a lot, but it worths. I think in cities, you have to pay esp attention to your personal belongings, but don't need to worry much abt other things. While in some remote villages ot towns, things are much more complicated. When I looked up info abt places that open to foreigners, I found this:" Places that open to foreigners have to satisfy four things. 1 They attract people; 2 Stable society and good SECURITY; 3 They have hotels, translators, buses and related facility; 4 Not related to nation secrets." There're a lot places esp towns and villages that gov can't control(beyond imagination). Those residents there have their own "laws". Here's a real story I've read on newspaper. A Chinese woman had been brought to a village by force and "sold" to a man as his wife. All the villagers knew abt her and even some ppl from other villagers heard abt her. She tried millions of times to run away but failed. Because those villagers not just kept her existence as a secret to the outside but also stopped her from running away TOGETHER. After 10 years, she finally made a call to the police station in a nearby city and when they came to rescue her, all the villagers stood in front of the police car until the police used water to dissipate them. My suggestion is do not go to remote places like Xinjiang, Xizang,etc alone or only with friends. In those places, sometimes even Chinese gov can't help much(not to mention an embassy!). Plus: Rome can't be built in one day. I believe my gov is trying her best. Double population means triple troubles(do I have to say how many ppl there're in China?) Thank you for your patience.
Scary... We holidayed in China just over a year back and it was a fantastic vacation. Of course we stuck to the cities. However, even there, we were always that extra bit cautious. Its scary what you went through. It makes me appreciate the democracy my country is and the freedom I enjoy.
a list where foreigners normally can get a travel permit without any difficulty Heibei Province(Pro):Shijiazhuang Chengde Pinshan Zhao Zunhua(Zunhua except Jul,Aug and Nov)
Shanxi Pro:Datong
Neimenggu Pro:Baotou Huhehaote
Liaoning Pro:Dalian Anshan Fushun Jingzhou Dandong Liaoyang Yingkou Benxi
Jilin Pro: Jilin Antu
Heilongjiang Pro: Daqing Qiqihaer Mudanjiang Jiamusi Yichun
Jiangsu Pro: Xuzhou Yangzhou Changzhou Zhenjiang Lianyungang Huaian Yixing
Zhejiang Pro: Shaoxing Ningbo Wenzhou Deqing
Anhui Pro:Hefei Wuhu Maanshan Qingyang Huangshan Tunxi Fenghu
Fujian Pro: Fuzhou Quanzhou Zhangzhou Xiamen Wuxishan
Jiangxi Pro: Nanchang Jingdezhen Jiujiang Jingangshan Pengze
Shangdong Pro: Yantai Liubo Taian Quhu Kenli
Henan Pro: Anyang Xinxiang Lin Gong Xinyang Sanmanxia Xinxiang Hui Yu
Hubei Pro: Shashi Xiangfan Xianning Jun Yichang Jianglin
Hunan Pro: Yueyang Hengyang Xiangtan(city) Xiangtan(town) Hengshan
Guangxi Pro: Liuzhou Wuming Binyang Guiping Wuzhou Xingan Beihai Lingchuan Yining(not the one Eldar visited)
Sichuan Pro: Leshan Wanxian E'mei Xindu Guan Meishan Zhong Yunyang Fengjie Wushan Dazu
Shanxi Pro: Yanan Xianyang Lintong
Gansu Pro: Lanzhou Jiayuguan Jiuquan Dunhuan
Guangdong Pro: Shenzhen Zhuhai Jiangkou Haikou Nanhai Zhongshan Shunde Qingyuan Xinhui
Guizhou Pro: Guiyang Zhenning
XINJIANG PRO: Wulumuqi Wuhezi Tulufan Kashen Kuche Akesu(Akesu is limited to climbers)
Eldar, I don't wanna say this at this momnet, but you did break the law. Because places where're not mentioned in the two lists normally are not open to foreigners. You have to have REASONS(or travel with a travel agency on a fixed route) like investment to apply a SPECIAL permit not just to police station but many other departments in the Army.Chinese people normally don't know anything about those two lists because they don't have to.
I suggest foreigners who plan to visit places like Xinjiang, Xizang call a travel agency in (big) cities and ask them to take care everything for you. In that way you may lose the joy of traveling by yourselves, but you don't have to worry about the permit.
a list where foreigners don't need a travel permit. Foreigners can come to the following 29 cities without travel permits. They are:
Beijing Tianjin Shanghai Qinhuangdao Taiyuan Shenyang Changchun Harbin Nanjing Suzhou Wuxi Hangzhou Jinan Qingdao Zhengzhou Kaifeng Luoyang Wuhan Changsha Guangzhou Foshan Zhaoqing Nanning Guilin Xi'an Chengdu Chongqing Kunming Lunan(town)
Please be sure to apply a travel permit when you plan to visit any city not in the list above.
I'm sorry for that. it's sad to read this story, double sad for me cos i'm Chinese. I feel sorry for you both. However, I still wanna say something(though with mixed feelings). First:sorry. Second: I can't agree with " leave China, never come back again. This was just a live example of how it is to be in a country with no freedom, with no real human rights." I have to say, similar things can happen to foreign visitors in any country and also did happen many times(no offense)in USA. It has little to do with "democracy" but a lot with "You're a visitor." It's alike(though much worse) when I travel to some towns without knowing any dialects and I'll be cheated by those chapmen.
Again:sorry for all of you and hope you'll enjoy the continued trip.
Jeez We can only say we feel for you. Glad you managed to sort it all out and hope it doesn't spoil the rest of your travels - great to hear you are continuing as planned.
Wow!! Sounds like a very scary experience. I have had similar experiences in the Middle East - Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Where there is no democracy, there is no freedom. You are at the mercy of thugs and corrupt authorities.
Always have a copy of your passport I made a comment prior to logging in but it is not there yet.
I always had multiple paper copies of my passport while overseas. Leave a copy at home and keep copies in various locations in your pack and on your persons. It is not the original but will help when you can get to your embassy and explain the situation.
wow.. Wow, what an experience that must have been with those cops. I'm sure it made you bitter, mad, exploited, etc. as it would have made me feel the same way. Did you ever go back to the travel agency to raise some hell with them? Perhaps posting their names on a website as uninformative bastards would be some good retribution.
Copy of Passport One thing to keep in mind always make multiple copies of your passport and keep them in various locations in your packs and on your person. These should be as good as the originals if you get in a situation like this. At least you will have some proof of the original passport that you can take to the US embassy and get a new one.
SHLO TISHTE LI SHAM HASHISH, ATA SHOMEA ? I took the time to re-read your log and view the images. The National Geographic couldn't do it better... Try to send them a link, I trully think you have a job offer promised (and I'm not talking XIV here).
Couldn't do it better I took the time to re-read your log and view the images. The National Geographic couldn't do it better...
Try to send them a link, I trully think you have a job offer promised (and I'm not talking XIV here).
sigh... my last comment didn't show up...hmm
I like ur picture a lot~even myself- a chinese girl haven't noticed so much abt my own country~enjoy ur trip in China!
BTW, will you guys visit Shenzhen?
thank you I am going to litang and other parts of china this summer your blog is absolutely amazing and has got me really juiced about my trip thanks so much for your info and insights
lexxx berkeley california - lexxx luthor
Chickens Hola!
Looks great, although visiting the dentist over there isn't that healthy, you know. Ohh, and I guess sending me live chicken through Airmail was a bad idea..
Have fun! - Slovo-mister
Cumberland Sausage
non-member comment
back to wonder
To reply to Wonder's reply to my reply - the text describes how the police physically assaulted both parties without necessary provocation. I'm not an expert in Chinese law but I very much doubt the statues give the police a free hand to assault people when and where they please. Ok they might take the old Soviet route (and increasingly US/UK route) of addng 'except in special circumstances' etc. I've read the rest of your comments and I agree from what you say that there is a risk associated with travelling in areas of China (and the same applies to almost any country) and I also applaud your commenting on this from a Chinese perspective. It was only my immediate reaction to the 'well they broke the law' attitude, which they also recieved from their embassy, that got my gander. A Cumberland Sausage is as a very tasty spicy (well seasoned) sausage which is a traditional dish from where I was brought up - Cumberland. Thanks for asking ;-)