Welcome to the Travel Forums


Why join TravelBlog?

  • Membership is Free and Easy
  • Your travel questions answered in minutes!
  • Become part of the friendliest online travel community.
Join Now! Join TravelBlog* today and meet thousands of friendly travelers. Don't wait! Join today and make your adventures even more enjoyable.

* Blogging is not required to participate in the forums
Advertisement


Has Travel Really Broadened Your Mind?

Advertisement
Or are you a secret hater?
15 years ago, May 6th 2008 No: 21 Msg: #34475  

As a woman, it is very tough for me to see and embrace cultures that basically (or should I say openly, as I think many cultures still do it secretly) consider women as inferior.



I have a hard time being patient with that one too. Progress with womens rights is so painfully slow. And there is the aftermath of discrimination that colours how we are viewed for quite some time after there is legislation put in place for our rights.

I try to look at it from the point of view that the importance society places on certain people or situations does not necessarily reflect the real value. Society is driven by all kinds of forces. Greed being a powerful negative influence and the cause of discrimination against certain groups.
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 6th 2008 No: 22 Msg: #34488  
Maya, good to hear I have some level of agreement! I know that being one who doesn't embrace cultural relativism or "political correctness" because of its inherent flaws, plus the fact I am basically a political conservative (as generally known by U.S. politics), I risk being called a "hater" without people really sitting down to talk through the issue in an intelligent manner. I can say that being a political conservative and on these travels where I am definitely in the minority has required be to think through my opinions, and to that I can say travel has broadened my mind. I haven't changed from my conservative ways, but will listen to the other arguments being made. In the end, I would again argue the question to be asked should be "what is inherently correct?" not "what can I argue is correct for me?" There is absolute right and wrong, a concept not always embraced nowadays.

The world thinks we're all a Jerry Springer show...sigh...who's to blame for that perception? Darn media and news, right? Of course, that's what sells and it sells because people will watch it and be entertained by it, probably because it is on some level comedy (though not very good comedy). So there's the chicken and egg question: Are shows such as Jerry Springer initiated by the media and the crowds follow, or is it what the crowds want so the media follows?

Okay, this is way too much thinking while on vacation. Take care...
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 23 Msg: #34521  
I think the importance of political correctness is that it creates an even playing field.
It allows the needs of the currently less dominant groups in society to come forward in a peaceful way.
Without it there is too much potential for violent unrest in society.

Mel Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 24 Msg: #34570  
B Posts: 228
I have an ongoing conversation similar to this with a friend of mine actually (because we do actually talk politics for fun!). He and I are both very politically liberal, and have some friends that are quite politically conservative. What we have both stated is that while we might not see eye to eye with our friends, we can appreciate others' view points because we have discussed our views at length and know that their views are well thought out and based on intelligent sources of information, as opposed to things like, say, the jerry springer show. We sometimes in fact welcome the difference of opinion because it challenges us to really think through our opinion and constantly monitor to see if as events change and as we grow, we still have the same opinions that we did previously. I think that there is a big difference in saying that you can acknowledge something as a cultural custom or belief (and as Mel said the importance society places on certain people) and saying that it would be acceptable in your life back home. As for political correctness, I think it has helped to create a bit of a level playing field. I think it can also be over-done in a way as well though. There have been certainly been times when I worked in the corporate world that things caused issues because they weren't "correct" (a family member of mine was once asked to sit on directors and told right out that the reason she was being asked was because she was a woman and she needed a woman or the board wouldn't be approved). I think sometimes people strive so hard to look like things are correct and appropriate that they kind of miss the boat a little. But that is more in the micro view of things.... when you look at the global picture, I certainly think it can help if used correctly. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 25 Msg: #34574  
Quotas are a heavy handed solution and it is a pity that they are necessary.
Could there be an alternative non confrontational solution to ensure a certain standard of rights in the workplace? Any suggestions anybody?
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 26 Msg: #34575  
B Posts: 212
Re political correctness - I agree a bit with you Maya that I think it can be overdone. It's an important thing in that it helps bring awareness to situations and as people have said, serves to redress lots of imbalances. Where I think it goes awry is particularly with language, the PC ways of saying things. It's really good we've come so far as to be aware and address language, so that derogatory terms that were used towards certain ethnic minorities, genders, and people with disabilities, have been replaced - but the result is also that two things have happened: as Maya said, missing the boat - eg in the UK, in certain education authorities, the nursery rhyme 'baa baa black sheep' was banned from being sung on the basis that it contained 'black' as an adjective - at the time I happened to be working in a kindergarten in a predominantly Afro-Carribean community in London, and all the people I worked with thought it was ridiculous - as my colleague, originally from Jamaica, said to me: 'I was brought up singing baa baa black sheep in Jamaica - I don't know why white people feel they have to make these rules'. It just completely misses the point of anti-discrimination, and almost works to undermine the whole spirit on which political correctness is founded. The other danger I think is that it can serve to drive racism, sexism, etc, underground, where they can grow stronger. You can't change people's thoughts and feelings simply by modifying their use of language and putting certain policies in place - (as Maya said in the example re the woman being invited on to the executive board - quite possibly that act actually made anyone who harboured sexist opinions who was on that board, inclined to be more sexist as a result of her being given that position). Policies help, but the reasons behind people's prejudices need to be addressed, - which is normally fear; fear of the unknown, what's not familiar, human beings' tribal instincts and wanting to be defined in particular groups etc. People need to be given the opportunity to think about why it is they feel what they feel - why do they - in fact, why do we, because we all have prejudice to some extent - feel threatened by different cultures, different genders?

going back to the original discussion re travelling broadening the mind or not - I think both were true in my case. I think I'm a lover and a hater. I was very confronted with my own lack of compassion and shock over seeing so much poverty on my travels, particularly in India - people always speak about how they had this real fundamental change of attitude. I didn't in the ways I was expecting to - a lot of the time I felt very irritated by people grabbing and calling at me on the street, then felt guilty, then irritated again, then guilty again etc etc etc. I'm not proud of feeling like that, but that's how it was, much of the time. It was only really when I stopped trying to have the required emotional responses, that I started feeling them a little - and it was very gradual. It was only really when I left, and I took a flight on to Singapore to start travelling in South east Asia, that I started realising that I had been affected in positive ways - I went into a shopping mall to get some shower gel, and was confronted by so much choice, that I couldn't decide (after having no choice for so long) and I thought, how crazy to spend so much time choosing between this brand, that brand etc - I don't want to be spending my time doing this, I just want some shower gel, and leave the shop. I'd got used to a much more simple and basic way of living without realising it, and preferred it. The life of super cleanliness and glitzy shopping malls in Singapore seemed really 2 dimensional to me, really plastic, in comparison to the richness of life I'd experienced in India. the other thing I noticed - after I eventually arrived in Australia after being 10 months in Asia, I started worrying again more - western life really nurtures worry and anxiety - particularly with things like health - there's such an obsession with health, and only if you buy the latest superfoods supplements, don't have too much of this or too little of that, will you be ok. We've got too much information in the West. People spend so much time worrying about their health, it makes them ill! I didn't worry about my health at all in Asia - people just get on with doing other things.
But having said all that, like I said, I still had a dual thing going on the whole time in Asia - going from loving it to hating it, finding the lack of personal space and boundaries really irritating, then the next minute finding it a relief that people aren't going round with so many masks and barriers all the time that you feel so isolated like you can in western society.
I admire anyone who's travelled who was able to throw themselves in to the culture so much that they didn't bang up against their own conditioning and habits. When I travel again I'm sure I'll have a similar experience - love/hate. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 27 Msg: #34576  
Debbie, that comment you made about baa baa black sheep reminds me of something. Not nursery rhymes but how the concept of political correctness can be abused.
I was working on a US army base in Germany where there were mostly black and white people working. One of my white female colleagues came in one day with her daughter. The daughter was one of those exceptionally beautiful mixed race kids. I told my colleague that her daugher is beautiful and asked if he boyfriend is black. She said yes. Then later another colleague told me off for asking that question. Apparently it is offensive. I felt so unfairly critisized.
I think that person who told me off and ones like those who say we should not say baa baa black sheep harbour some guilt about their own secret hates and think others are like they are.
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 28 Msg: #34590  
B Posts: 228
I absolutely agree with Mel (and i think others have touched on this as well)... many people who are so "careful" about the political correctness are that way because they secretly do have a bias and are trying to cover it up the only way they know how. Not that this is true in all cases, but I definitely think it happens. I also agree with Debbie... I feel a mix of emotions when I travel as well and I think that is a rather natural human reaction. I was just at a conference in France (I don't speak French) and although I absolutely love languages and try to pick them up a bit wherever I am, when i got to the conference after about 10 days of traveling and everyone one was speaking English (because it was a conference primarily for US travel agents) I have to say I felt a little relieved to be able to communicate. I'm certainly not one of those people who thinks everyone everywhere should speak English, but for a couple of days, it was nice to not feel quite so helpless and silly because I couldn't speak the language. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 7th 2008 No: 29 Msg: #34600  
Maya and Deb really hit home a point of one of the flaws of political correctness: the slip into thought policing -whether intended or not. The ironic part of political correctness is what seems to be done in practice is this: the claimed attempt is to allow a diversity of opinions, but seems to end up being an attempt to replace one set of "acceptable" thoughts for another, which is exactly what political correctness is supposed to be trying to stop (at least that's one claimed goal). Thus, we move away from the more important question of "what is inherently right?" to "what can this group or that group argue is right for the society?" It's simply an attempt to shift power from one group to another... also ironically coming off as a form of "secret hating"!

As far as the Deb's thoughts on rich/poor, I too have had similar thoughts. In Latin America, I've gone to calling it the "gringo hassle". Especially as a lone traveler and occasionally one of only a few gringos in the area, I can quickly be a target that is assumed to have money and therefore get people asking if I need a cab, jewelry, sunglasses in addition the ones I'm wearing, women, etc. When getting asked over and over, it is pretty hard (at least for me) to not have gotten a bit short with people. Yet, I also try to remember that it's not really a Latin American thing...our rich(er) celebs in the U.S. obviously insulate themselves for the same reason: all us "regular" folk would be hounding them for cash and to buy stuff otherwise. Imagine Donald Trump walking down your street...we all know that he would be stopped by everyone - even middle class people - to buy something or hand over cash. I imagine it's somewhat the same here in Latin America...from the media shown, it's assumed every American has all sorts of cash to give away. It was an interesting reflection I had, at least for myself.

And Maya's comments on language...I also understand all too well. There is a part of me that sometimes wishes people would only speak to me in Spanish so I have no choice but learn it. There's then the other part of me that appreciates English at times too, just because I can then have a full conversation with someone. If there is anything that has made me a little homesick at times, it's not being able to have much conversation with people. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 8th 2008 No: 30 Msg: #34619  
I think all concepts and philosophies that are desigened to drive society forward are potentially subject to misunderstandings and misconceptions. But if we throw out concepts such as political correctness because of this, we may be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I like to think that groups in society are jossling for their position in society, rather than trying to shift the power to themselves.
This brings to mind the Dali Lama. I believe that he is one of the worlds truely good people but I see a flaw in his reasoning. I think rather than decide that women would be better leaders they should be incorporated into the worlds power structures. Will women be the answer to world peace
In order to achieve world peace I think it is vitally important to create balance. Deciding that one group is better than another my solve some problems but will also create at least an equal number of problems, in my opinion.

Gary, what you said reminds me of something. I often think when I am travelling in the third world that I experience what it is like to be famous. Too much attention from the public even if it is flattering attention is too much. :D
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 8th 2008 No: 31 Msg: #34632  
Mel...you are encouraging me to have discussions that I have not had in many moons...very in-depth online. I had these back in the day and had to get out of them as they became too consuming for me!

I found your wording, "...desigened to drive society forward..." to be most intriguing. When you say those words, I think we are really looking to the same end: finding what is inherently right (or correct, or proper, choose your word). That is at least the implication I'm taking...if you're looking for something that is driving society forward it seems to beg the question of what towards? Presumably some notion of something that is just "right" or "correct". It would seem that the hope is political correctness may be a means to that end. I would ask why we need political correctness? Let's just ask the end question directly and move in that direction if/when we decide what is "correct" as opposed to intermediary vehicles. I'd have to go back and say that to whatever some may nobly envision in encouraging political correctness, unfortunately there are those who will misuse it to the end of thought policing or taking power for their own ends...sorry, while I'd also like to think that groups are jossling (and perhaps some are), my experience says too many groups are looking for shift power. Call me cynical...

Anyway...if the "gringo hassle" (or call it what you will) is what it's like to be famous, I agree it's too much attention. I'd rather just be "normal". On an interesting side note, the CEO of Target (which is headquartered in my hometown, Minneapolis) is known for being unknown as a CEO, intentionally. Call it Midwestern self-effacement or modesty, but I think he's on to something. Besides not having to deal with the hassle he argues it helps the Target Corporation because the company will carry on without him (as he's getting ready to retire), something that Wal-Mart had to deal with when Sam Walton moved on from his post. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 8th 2008 No: 32 Msg: #34638  
Towards the highest human rights standards we can achieve.
But ''towards?' would imply that there is an actual finish point. New ways are yet to be discovered that can benefit all of us.
We are a progressing society and I think we should aim towards perfection. Of course perfection is never possible but I think in order to have the best society possible we must aim for it. We should aim for it but not become apathetic if we cant hit it. It is an ideal rather than attainabe in my opinion.

Of course there will be bumps along the way in a progressive society. We can only avoid them if we stagnate. We cant avoid intermediary vehicles as trial and error is part and parcel of progression. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 8th 2008 No: 33 Msg: #34667  
B Posts: 228
I agree that while the goal to aim towards is the highest human rights standards we can achieve, it is something may always be a goal and that the best we may be able to do is to keep aiming for it. Part of the reason is that I think, and this is not a criticism but rather an observation, that one can virtually always find areas where perhaps something else can be done, or where they think they're making things equal it's really doing the opposite and pointing out that they are different. I come across this in the travel industry a lot - websites have sections/tours geared towards different ethnic backgrounds, genders, orientations, etc. On one hand, I think it's good that if people feel more comfortable traveling with other people of their gender, race or orientation, that these options are available. On the other hand, it has two negative impacts in my mind - one being that if you travel with people who are all "like you" (in quotes because the likeness is on the surface), it is tougher to get the effect of broadening the mind that travel so often has. In addition, sometimes this segregates people and creates less equality by making people seem more different than they really are. The particular website that sparked this thought is Southwest's new addition which I believe, is www.southwest.com/gay, obviously geared towards GLBT travelers. While I applaud their effort to recognize the GLBT community, if I were part of this community I may feel that it's actually segregating me more to not just be included with other travelers. It's a very touchy and difficult subject and I think that with every attempt to move forward, there are going to be ways in which it can be misused or misunderstood. Unfortunately, that can be said about so many other topics and aspects of life as well. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 8th 2008 No: 34 Msg: #34672  
I think we are all different in some ways and the same in others.
I dont mind if there are sites and fora only for women. I can see why women would want to communicate in a certain way and about certain subjects with other women. Same with men.
Then we can have a general site or club for everybody to share the things that are the same or even to enjoy the differences of the others.

I think we can all take great hope from the fact that there is no country(except those at war) where people are worse off wealth and freedomwise than they were 100 years ago. For sure we might like to give progression a good shove to speed it up, but we cant deny that it is happening and we are part of it. Everytime we give our opinion we promote our needs and those of others in society and play a small part in having those needs incorporated into our progressive societies.
Reply to this

15 years ago, May 10th 2008 No: 35 Msg: #34866  
B Posts: 212
I think it's all a complex issue - I agree partly with you Maya and partly with you Mell. When people don't feel accepted or acknowledged, their response tends to be to define themselves as part of a particular group/community, in order to sharpen the definition, if you like, feel a sense of belonging somewhere at least. I imagine that what's maybe happened with the gay community is that there has been a history of strong prejudice against them, drummed in originally by most if not all world religions, with reference to homosexuality being 'wrong' appearing in so-called sacred texts (unfortunately the Dalai Lama also holds this view - Buddhism is not even immune to prejudice), and in society, it's one of the groups where prejudice seems to be taking longer to fall away than with other minority groups. Which gender you happen to be sexually oriented to shouldn't matter, and I agree to a certain extent with Maya, well why segregate then? But 'mainstream' society's influence is very powerful and strong - even with little awarenesses inflitrating through representation in the media, it's still very embryonic. Advertising is still overpoweringly oriented towards the heterosexual life and I can imagine that as someone who is gay, this would feel very negating and dismissive - I wonder if this is why the gay community has become a whole community, developed a whole culture, in fact.
The danger is that when groups seek to define themselves so strongly, as a response to feeling negated, they crystallise, and barriers can get bigger - maybe it's an unavoidable part of evolution, that we have to define in order to reach the point where we can un-define - I don't know. The trouble is that all wars and conflict are always based on this - 'this is me, this is you, this is ours, this is yours'. Wars are fought consistently over territory - whose land is whose - and commodities - what belongs to who. I don't know the answers. But it brings me to the other point about human rights - I've had a thing about this phrase for some years. Like you say, Mell, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water over fundamentally sound concepts such as human rights, which gives rise to more concepts such as political correctness. But in themelves, they're abstracts. What are human rights, really? Who is bestowing these 'rights'? The basic problem is that we are stuck in a 'this is me, this is you' polarity and as a result we don't know how to behave decently enough to each other. We don't feel enough of an inherent sense of responsibility towards ourselves and others - ourselves and others being essentially the same phenomenon. So we've had to invent a concept called 'human rights' in order that people strive to behave decently to each other. It's great that there's been enough awareness inherently, to get to this point, where we see that need - but ultimately we need to move on from seeing things as being 'human rights' to seeing things as being just a natural sense of duty and care for each other. So I guess human rights, and concepts like political correctness are a good framework, they're like the guides, but they're not the foundation. Like the archetypal wise person saying, it's a finger pointing to the moon. If we focus too much on the finger, we've lost it. Same maybe then with groups and identities - they're perhaps a necessary framework, but if we get stuck in them, we can't move on. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 12th 2008 No: 36 Msg: #35066  
B Posts: 228
I am also on both sides of the coin a bit. I understand people wanting to feel comfortable when traveling (or doing anything else) and that sometimes it means being with your "group". I guess really what it is for me is that I wish we didn't need for these groups to have their own websites and that it truly didn't matter what someone's gender, race or orientation is, but the truth of the matter, as we've all acknowledged, is that we don't treat everyone equally and though things are improving through human rights, etc, there's still a long way to go. And for travel specifically, i dont mind at all womens and mens trips when it comes to interests and activities or even just a fun men's or women's getaway to catch up with friends. I guess it's more the feeling that we need to have a seperate web page for the GLBT community (or any other group) because it's still uncomfortable for them to go with the "mainstream" tours - I don't blame people for feeling uncomfortable at all, I just think it's a shame that they are made to feel that way by other people's actions, words and thoughts. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 12th 2008 No: 37 Msg: #35072  
I think there is nothing wrong with people being different.
I think the hate part comes in when people pick on the weakness of a group while ignoring their strengths and then use this to decide that members of this group are less worthy. Reply to this

15 years ago, May 13th 2008 No: 38 Msg: #35093  
B Posts: 228
Very well put...I think it's wonderful that people are different. i would hate for everyone to be just like me! Reply to this

15 years ago, May 15th 2008 No: 39 Msg: #35292  

I imagine that what's maybe happened with the gay community is that there has been a history of strong prejudice against them, drummed in originally by most if not all world religions, with reference to homosexuality being 'wrong' appearing in so-called sacred texts (unfortunately the Dalai Lama also holds this view - Buddhism is not even immune to prejudice)



The Dalai Lama does not support prejudice against gays.
He says the following

From a "Buddhist point of view," lesbian and gay sex "is generally considered sexual misconduct," the Dalai Lama told reporters at a press conference a day earlier.

However, such proscriptions are for members of the Buddhist faith - and from "society's viewpoint," homosexual sexual relations can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable, and harmless," according to the Dalai Lama.

From Dalai Lama urges 'respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,' including gays

Reply to this

15 years ago, May 18th 2008 No: 40 Msg: #35610  
7 posts moved to this new topic: What do you think about religion? Reply to this

Tot: 0.106s; Tpl: 0.01s; cc: 6; qc: 15; dbt: 0.0482s; 1; m:domysql w:travelblog (10.17.0.13); sld: 1; ; mem: 1mb