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Carbon Footprint...do you care?

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Any other travellers give this thought as you trapse around the globe?
14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 21 Msg: #83854  

.. environmental wackos ....


What exactly makes them wackos? They got some things wrong in the process of trial an error, while trying to solve the massive environmental problems we have?

Anyway that asside, ''how do you plan to lessen your carbon footprint on the planet? Or do you?'' or are you going to be a backseat driver, while the ''wackos'' do all the hard work.
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14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 22 Msg: #83915  
B Posts: 602
If Denmark can do that I would really like to see it. We have a real market for it and would like to have it here also. I believe that harnessing the wind would be a really good thing!

"Envionmental Wackos? I'd put global warming deniers firmly in the wacko camp, there with all the "rapture" lot. Certain environmentalists are concerned that if wind turbines are on a migration path for birds they could cause major problems - but so do domestic cats on the bird population too."

The wackos are the ones who to stop logging will go in and drive medal stakes in the trees that are marked for cutting. This way when the chainsaw hits it, there is a kick back that could kill the logger. They sue the logging companies to keep them off of land where they are taking out dead and dying trees. Then the wood goes bad and burns everything - even the young trees. This causes lots of air pollution and respiratory problems. So their activities are harmful, illogical, and self destructive. This is but one small example I could give of what I consider to be an environmental wacko. Oh I agree about the rapture - they are reading it backwards. LOL

According to meteorologists and those who study weather patterns - yes the caps have started to come back over the past couple of years. This is new. One big problem with scientists is that they don't always talk to scientist in different fields. Microbiologists don't talk to meteorologists and the such. This gives answers that are incomplete. When you look at the different fields and put them together you get a much more rounded picture. The book that has this source is at home - will have to get it later. I at least know where this source is to find it.

Couple of things are what is causing the fluctuation of fuel prices. Mostly this has to do with the government and games played by other countries. Back in Sept of this past year, when fuel was over $4 a gal. here in the states it was illegal to drill off shore and there were many bans to drill on shore - in shale and in other places. Bush (something he actually got right even if it was unconstitutional) signed an executive order to lift the ban on off shore drilling. At this point the price of a barrel of oil dropped better than $15 within a week. Then in the first part of October the sunset on the other bans fell away. Oil then started to really drop. OPEC did not want our drillers tapping a bunch of holes and loosing our income. Believing it would be the democrats that got into office and they would reestablish the bans they dropped the cost of a barrel of oil to below what our drillers could afford to drill at. Way below it. This is not the first time they have done such a thing. When we have threatened to do other large environmentally sound ways to get off of oil they will drop it so it is not cost affective to be able to build them. When the Stimuas bill was passed, in the bill was a rider making it illegal to drill off shore again - hence the costs went back up and we have been feeling it. It is politics at it's worst and our expense!

As for water supply - I do understand that one. I don't have city water, but a well at home. My grandparents on my mother's side have 10 sections of land in eastern Montana - water is a big thing to ranchers and farmers! But in order for it to go through the soil it has to be in a larger quantity than one cup to reach the water before being disseminated into it. Like I said, they are spraying it on the roads and then it runs off onto the land around it. So what is the difference. I hate inequities.

Exxon, Shell, BP and the such do not just drill on their own. They have a few places where they drill - but for the most part the purchase their oil from Canada, Mexico, Middle East and so on. Actually, if the cap and trade bill goes through - Conoco has stated they will shut down all of their refineries in the states. What this does it means the oil is drilled and refined in places that don't care as much about the environment. I agree with many of the standards that have been set. We have three different refineries in the area. When I was a kid they smelled something awful, but this is not the case today. Much of it is changes in technology and other parts of it is regulations, but even more effective has been the tax breaks they get for implementing new ways to improve the environment. Our refineries are well above what the government requires because of the tax credits more than anything.

It is the small in independent driller in this country that are being put out of business and this is due to the tricks played on us by OPEC.

No it doesn't explain why I deny Global Warming. I believe we should do good things for our environment. But I don't want to do them for lies! I want them done for their own good reasons. Reply to this

14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 23 Msg: #83920  
B Posts: 602
Stuart - my apologies in not getting back to you. Roger Revelle

Here is another one for you. He was a top French geophysicists Claude Allegre

Al Gore is important because it is his information in the states that have been used as propaganda to spread the global warming fear. He won a Nobel Prize for his 'movie' on global warming that is now shown in all kinds of schools. In it he lectures from his private plane and the back seat of his Lincoln on how we need to quit harming the environment. If you look up hypocrite in the dictionary - you might see his picture. Much of his science is just bad! He is a hack who used to be vice president under Clinton. This is why I am so against him.

It is a necessity in such countries. It isn't much different from how it was here when my mother was growing up on the farm - so there is hope for them also. Rather than bringing us down to that level - I would like to see them be able to have what we have on day. Reply to this

14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 24 Msg: #83921  
B Posts: 602
Mel - please see my definition of environmental wacko given to Davon. Reply to this

14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 25 Msg: #83928  

I believe we should do good things for our environment.


What good things do you think should be done? Reply to this

14 years ago, August 21st 2009 No: 26 Msg: #83929  
B Posts: 602
Those that are reasonable and responsible. I have already espoused many of them. Reply to this

14 years ago, August 22nd 2009 No: 27 Msg: #83962  
Hi, Dymphna,

I'm sure many of your arguments are correct and you have done a lot of research. There are a lot of people who share your views, and there should be healthy debate about all of this.

I would be interested in your view of the future - would you be happy for car use to increase, more roads to be built, car parks and shopping malls constructed over green belts, airports to expand and air travel to increase?
Should we increase pesticide use to boost food production even though we waste unbelieveable amounts of food already? (Try growing your own vegetables and seeing how much of it you waste after months of tending and watering... oh, and they taste better!)
Should we stop trying to develop new technologies that create power and go back to the good old-fashioned coal-fired power stations?
How can we increase the amount of 'nature' on the planet, instead of reducing it?

I'm not a eco-warrior, and I don't believe all the 'eco-arguements' are true, but generally i believe that at least having a a cleaner, healthier and more sustainable view of where we are pushing our planet and its resources (and ourselves!) is a good thing! The world would, of course, be a better place if we all tried - just a little bit - to cut down on the polluting, environmentally damaging things.

Whats the alternative option?


Here's a blog i recently published in a similar vein:
A Wing and A Prayer
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14 years ago, August 22nd 2009 No: 28 Msg: #83981  
B Posts: 580
The price of OIL is up again, despite the biggest global depression since THE BIG ONE; which suggests the oil is RUNNING OUT, no? The environment is deteriorating exponentially around our ears, and yet we just bought a Ford Windstar 3.8LX - that does less than 20mpg! Yeeha!!!

The the irony is; I care, I REALLY DO CARE! Reply to this

14 years ago, August 22nd 2009 No: 29 Msg: #83982  

I would be interested in your view of the future - would you be happy for car use to increase, more roads to be built, car parks and shopping malls constructed over green belts, airports to expand and air travel to increase?


I personally would like to see fewer cars used. I dont think there is a need for them in areas with good public transport. Where I live, almost every family has a car, even though the public transport is extensive here. Thing is, how can people be presuaded to give up having cars and use the public transport instead? Just providing great train ticket bargains and extensive city public transport does not seem to be doing it.

Also, there are recycling containers just outside my appartment and more just accross the street, and some more outside every other appartment building. They hardly cost anything to use, yet many people dont recycle. Not recycling carries a huge fee for everybody who lives in the appartments. Why do they choose to have everybody pay this fee, rather than separate their garbage into glass, cans.... and put it in the recycling bins?

I think we should only have as many supermarkets, airports etc as we need. Sure it is convenient to have them everywhere, but I wouldnt mind having to walk a KM or whatever to get to a supermarket instead of having one on every corner.

Should we increase pesticide use to boost food production even though we waste unbelieveable amounts of food already? (Try growing your own vegetables and seeing how much of it you waste after months of tending and watering... oh, and they taste better!)
Should we stop trying to develop new technologies that create power and go back to the good old-fashioned coal-fired power stations?


I think that depends on if countries can produce enough food for their people without boosting food production. But, I think there are good and bad ways to boost food production. I am not so sure poisoning the environment and ourselves and depleting the mineral supplies in food with too much use of nitrates is necessary.
No, I dont think we should stop producing new technologies. The human brain is capable of extraordinary things, and I dont think we should hinder it.

How can we increase the amount of 'nature' on the planet, instead of reducing it?


The giving everybody a free tree that happened in Ireland at least once seems like a way to cause a few million trees to be added to the environment. I dont know how many collected and planted their free tree though.

I'm not a eco-warrior


Those who are will know just how hard it is to change peoples attitudes towards the environment. Some ''eco warriers'', ''wacko environmentalists'', ''tree huggers'' etc get it wrong by doing crimes to fight their case but I dont think we should dismiss everything they stand for or the efforts they put into it because of what some of them have done wrong. While I dont agree with crimes done in the name of worthy causes, I do agree with the causes themselves.

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14 years ago, August 23rd 2009 No: 30 Msg: #84039  
B Posts: 580
If "eco warriors" don't break any laws or "do things wrong" they will accomplish nothing (That is what the laws are for; after all, who is it that writes them?).

If serious, they need to be more efficient in the laws they do choose to break, and perhaps worry a little less about 'hurting their cause' in the process. After all, isn't their cause saving the environment - if they are in the PR industry, they're wasting their time. Because despite what has been written about the media on here. The media is OWNED by the big businesses (who build the bombs, nuclear power plants, oil refineries, cut down the forests and hoover the sea beds), and their PR machine is a little more refined than that of the average "tree hugger". Reply to this

14 years ago, August 23rd 2009 No: 31 Msg: #84040  

If "eco warriors" don't break any laws or "do things wrong" they will accomplish nothing


It dont think breaking the law is accomplishing anything except causing people to pay more attention to the crime than the cause. They can bring attention to the cause without damaging people or property.

I think the media bodies also have a reputation to uphold, so if they want to be seen as respectable they wont be biased.

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14 years ago, August 23rd 2009 No: 32 Msg: #84048  

Not recycling carries a huge fee



Theres a symbol that everyone is familiar with.
The word everyone forgets is 'Reduce' - i.e. reducing the amount of things you buy, consume and waste.
Recycling on its own will not make much difference unless we cut down on what we use in the first place.

The problem is: Our modern consumer society is based on consumption and increasing levels of it, so how do we build future economies based on consuming less?



I haven't got a clue! Any suggestions? Reply to this

14 years ago, August 23rd 2009 No: 33 Msg: #84049  
B Posts: 580
I think you may have missed the point Mell.

I'm suggesting they break the law to stop the juggernaut devouring the planet.

NOT to gain your (or anyone's) attention by unfurling banners on famous landmarks or smashing the windows of the local McDonald's.

I think the media bodies also have a reputation to uphold, so if they want to be seen as respectable they wont be biased



...Devil's advocate...right?



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14 years ago, August 23rd 2009 No: 34 Msg: #84050  
B Posts: 580
Since we are mostly in agreement that this culture will not undergo a voluntary transformation to a sane and sustainable way of living, how does this understanding — that this culture will not voluntarily stop destroying the natural world, eliminating indigenous cultures, exploiting the poor, and killing those who resist — shift our strategy and tactics?

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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 35 Msg: #84078  

...Devil's advocate...right?


No.


... that this culture will not voluntarily stop destroying the natural world


I think all cultures will be the same, as they get their hands on more and more money. I hope their governments will spend some of their new found wealth on better waste handling facilities. And maybe providing some education about the environment might help a little, because there are always some people who care.
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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 36 Msg: #84079  

I'm suggesting they break the law to stop the juggernaut devouring the planet.


As in peaceful protesting? Yes, I think peaceful protest is always a good way to bring attention to something. And media will report peaceful protest. And, that would not be breaking the law......
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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 37 Msg: #84095  

Should we increase pesticide use to boost food production even though we waste unbelieveable amounts of food already?


It will also help if you become a vegetarian(if you are not one already). Most/all animals consume more energy than they provide. The more people who are vegetarian the better.

In the 1800s the British government tried to presuade all their citizens to become vegetarian, to reduce Britians dependence on imported food. They failed.
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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 38 Msg: #84107  
>>According to meteorologists and those who study weather patterns - yes the caps have started to come back over the past couple of years.

I am sorry, but this is not true. The Arctic Ocean icecap has been consistently thinning. In 2007 it was at its absolute recorded minimum extent.

>>This is new. One big problem with scientists is that they don't always talk to scientist in different fields. Microbiologists don't talk to meteorologists and the such.

Scientists
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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 39 Msg: #84134  
B Posts: 151

Recycling on its own will not make much difference unless we cut down on what we use in the first place. The problem is: Our modern consumer society is based on consumption and increasing levels of it, so how do we build future economies based on consuming less?



Good point and tough question ...

The growth of the economy is dependent on consumerism but at the expense of our planet. If we reduce our level of consumption, the economy suffers and people lose jobs etc...
However, if society continues to live excessively or consume at an exponential rate, the environment suffers. Having said that, the society's current way of life is only sustainable if our planet's natural resources are renewable or infinite (which are not !). We treat our planet as if there’s another one to go. As what Paul Erlich said, “we are sawing off the very branch on which we sit.” We are polluting the air that we breathe and poisoning the land and water where we get our livelihood, food and water from, and altering the natural beauty of our home.

Big corporations/businesses holding the economic power will fight tooth and nail not to lose control of what they have. So now it boils down to the consumers. For those who are already enjoying an easy, comfortable and pleasureable way of life, Who's willing to change and give up such lifestyle for the sake of the environment ? Who's willing to give up a car which provides freedom, convenience and mobility to go wherever and whenever as you please ? Not many ...

So if we can't reduce our level of consumption, I believe at least recycling and re-using the things we accumulate still make a difference. I'm fanatical on putting anything recyclable rubbish/trash into our recycling bin at home. I donate/giveaway our old stuff so it can be re-used or be of use to others. I refrain from turning on our AC or heater as much as I could endure the heat or cold. I am also planning to a make a compost bin, plant a fruit tree and start a vegetable patch in the backyard. I got rainwater tank installed so we don’t have to use the town’s water supply in watering the garden, washing the car, patio and our dog. Having a car is something we can’t give up…yet. You’re a bird without wings in Australia if you don’t have a car.

When oil is in near depletion and other vital natural resource dwindled, that's when tough governmental policies and regulations will come to place which will have a huge impact on society's way of life. Only about 2 years ago when Australia is in drought, dams’ levels are on record low. So government put on water restrictions: no more watering the gardens with hose, only bucket wash for cleaning cars, 4minute showers, extra tax on excess water consumptions and so on. In the Philippines, the government has introduced a policy where cars are restricted to be driven on the road on certain days based on the last number of the registration place in order to reduce air pollution and ease traffic congestion.

Australia has just recently committed in investing $30billion towards renewable source of energy (solar and wind), which will be passed on to consumers of course through increased electricity bills. The government also offers thousands of dollars worth of rebate to households who purchase solar panels and roof insulations.

It will take global governmental collective measures, goodwill and individual commitment to reshape a throw-away culture of our society towards a ecologically sustainable future. We should at least do anything we can before it's too late.

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14 years ago, August 24th 2009 No: 40 Msg: #84150  
Dymphna the hyper link you gave to Roger Revelle is broken. It links to a page that says that the article cannot be found. As a result I spent a couple of hours looking for any references to the accusation that you made. I couldn't find any. After a couple of hours I went back to the broken link. I noticed that it was a search page for a local cable TV station. So I searched KUSI news which is a wholly owned subsidiary of McKinnon Broadcasting. McKinnon Broadcasting is a right wing media group - a little Fox News almost - that controls a number of local cable news channels and newspapers. I finally found a reference to Roger Revelle which might be the source of your accusation against Al Gore.

The accusation was made by the weather forecast presenter of the channel. To give everyone some idea of the quality of the accusation I will quote part of Coleman's Video presentation.

I have learned that in 1991 Roger Revelle made a speech at the high powered, very private Summer enclave of powerful men and politicians at the Bohemian Grove in Northern California, where he apologized that his research sent so many people in the wrong direction on global warming.

He worried about the political fallout from the UN IPCC and Al Gore. A man named Donn Michael Schmidtman who lives in the San Francisco area was there that day and remembers the Revelle speech very well. He has told about it in some detail.

.

So, your claims are based on unsubstantiated claims of secret meetings and a named individual who we are not told anything about. Who is Donn Michael Schmitman? I suspect that the fact that Roger Revelle is dead is the only reason Coleman can get away with his comments. Coleman's Video Report 3/6/09 .

Much more typical is this report from Nasa . Nasa seem totally unaware of Revelle's 'conversion.'

In November 1990, Roger Revelle received the National Medal of Science from President George Bush. He remarked to a reporter: "I got it for being the grandfather of the greenhouse effect."



Now Claude Allege was a highly regarded geophysicist, although he has never published any scientific papers on climate change which probably means that he hasn't done any research on the subject. The thing is the man is also a politician. He made a statement 20 years ago about climate change. It was not a scientific paper. At the time he was lobbying in the French Parliament on behalf of the Nuclear Industry. So, he used climate change as a stick to beat his critics and argue for the building of Nuclear Power Stations. He is now working for the French Coal Industry and is lobbying heavily for them. Strangely, now his paymasters have changed he's changed his tune! It seems the man is more worried about his political career than his scientific reputation.

In the very brief magazine editorial the man manages to:

1.Screw up the name of a scientific journal*
2.Claimed the glacier melt over the last few decades was due to the movement of multi-million year old mountains.  An argument that Georg Hoffman calls an "obvious error" due to dramatically different time scales.
3.Misrepresent the state of the science to such an extent that the French scientific community wrote an open letter in protest
4.Misrepresent scientific literature to the point that even the authors of the very papers Allegre cited were crying foul.
5.Claim climate models predict warming on the South Pole when in fact they do not.
6.Leave clues about a possible political motive

The fact is the oil industry spends a lot of money trying to discredit the scientific consensus on Climate Change. They support lobbying groups, plant stories in the media through men like Coleman at KUSI News and even pay people to put propaganda on Forum postings.

That aside, its too convenient to dismiss the science. Dymphna, is there anything that you are prepared to do to reduce your carbon footprint? Would you consider turning the thermostat down on your central heating? Would you use the train rather than flying when you're travelling?


Thinking about the original question, I do care about my Carbon Footprint and beyond that I want to see a future that is sustainable. Although I also want that to be a future with gadgets and a high standard of living. Yes I know, I want to have my cake and eat it!
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