"I can never understand why people insist on feeling disrespected because of what others are wearing?"
I thought I read something about refusing to cover up in a temple and leaving, or some such.
Leaving rather than tolerating something isnt the same as throwing a fit.
I actually just peep into temples rather than go in and look around extensively. I just dont feel like going in. I think this is due largely to the sexist aspect of religions. And then there are the thoughts about the pain and misery that produced the wealth needed to make such an elaborate temple. How many suffered and/or died for this?
Reply to this I'm interested that so many people are anti the restrictions of visiting places with different cultures.
I understand that we don't always agree with the politics and the restrictions on those countries, which is why (if we have a choice) we don't live there. However if we choose to visit it is about seeing the life of the people and if necessary accepting that we don't have as much choice as at home.
Do I want to wear a head scarf - no, do I have difficulty in doing so if that is the accepted culture or LAW of that land, no. Yes I accept that it is sexist and repressive, in the west our sexism is equally as pervasive, but not as restrictive or obvious.
We travel to experience other places and if you don't like the restrictions of the country or the values of the governnment/religion I suggest you don't go there. I'm off to Iran and accept the restrictions, I'm not a big fan of the government, but then I'm not there to see them, but to see the country, the history (ancient as well as not so) and have an opportunity to meet with ordinary people to gain an insight into their lives and if that means I have to stick a piece of material on my head, so be it.
Call it respect, politeness or just a happiness to comply as that means I get to experience other different countries if I comply with the 'rules' whether I agree or not.
Reply to this I've actually seen people throw fits over not being allowed in in sleeveless tops.
I personally hardly ever do the tourist thing, so I don't get to see famous temples and museums very often, but when I see westerners being endlessly critical of locals and their customs I feel ashamed.
Reply to this Cosmic - re your original point - that was me saying I refused to go in the palace and temple complex in Phnom Penh because they insisted I buy a t-shirt from them and said that wearing a shawl or a jacket was not acceptable- my point was I thought they were using their cultural customs to try and make money from tourists, and abusing their own religious tradition by doing it, therefore I wasn't going to go along with that. I didn't throw a fit. I just left.
Reply to this I'm interested that so many people are anti the restrictions of visiting places with different cultures.
Again I don't think any of us said we were
anti anything. I thought the reason we're having this discussion is to get to the heart of what we may feel about things deep down - ie that we do go along with the customs of countries when we visit them but don't necessarily agree with some of the reasons for those customs, and the effects that they can and do have on their own peoples - and what do we really think and believe about these things?
Reply to this I've actually seen people throw fits over not being allowed in in sleeveless tops.
I dont think any of us would enjoy listening to those particularly loud types of tourists. They are probably the same ones that screach in Venice that the canals stink or in Rome that they have bigger Colleseums back home..... :D
Reply to this ...in the west our sexism is equally as pervasive..
Indeed, and the longer and the more of us who respect it the longer it will last.
But I do think the womens rights standards we have achieved in many Western countries are at least decades ahead of those of the women in Iran.
About the headscarfs: It is more than a piece of cloth. Taking off ones headscarf in public in Iran is seen as and has been used as a form of political protest.
A large percentage of Iranians want reform. Many women in Iran manage to look smoulderingly sexy despite the Islamic dress restrictions. Is the sultry eye makeup and cat like movements that give this illusion also a political protest. The police sometimes beat them for it.
And then there are the Iranian women who dress like European nuns did in the 1950s.
Reply to this Debbie; I get it. I did misunderstand what you were saying and missed your point earlier, sorry about that.
Reply to this Ive read a bit about gender psychology and feminist issues over the last 10 + years.
To try to sumarise a little why these customs came about and why women reject progress despite it being in the interest of making things fairer in their favour:
Government, religious etc bodies were set up by men and traditionally gave men more wealth, power and autonomy. Women accepted these in the belief that they were for the good of all when they did not to much extent take into account the needs of women and children.
Women tend to have a greater ability to deal with adverse situations in society than men do. They learned to get what they could out of these situations. Although heavily weighed in favour of men, women learned that if they do this or that there will be a certain outcome. It is a situation that is held in place by strong emotional needs of women. Ie the need to feel safe and secure. If I go out today and relate to people in this way and do that then what I expect will happen. The feminist movement is strongly opposed by many women as well as men because it threatens the status quo and plunges women into uncertainty which threatens their safety and security. eg. If I am wearing a burka I am deemed worthy of a certain amount of respect and protection against rape. My financial needs and thus the survival of myself and my children are also to some extent insured because I am following the required rules. I am a good wife and will be taken care of. If I am not a good wife and respectable woman....
We have the luxury of questioning these traditions and fighting for fairness because we have the protection of society and the opportunity to at least gain enough money to survive despite our questioning of the system. But still few of us will dare look at the issues. Although our safety and security is not threatened in many of our societies other emotional needs play a part. ie the greatest human need is that of receiving love. When our safety and security needs are taken care of we start to feel our need for love. eg Consider the attitudes of many men and women too to the feminists. They are frequently and unreasonably stereotyped as ugly, agressive and unfeminine. Women tend to believe that beauty and youth make them more worthy of love and that fighting for their rights or even expressing feminist ideals will make them less worthy of love......
Reply to this Women tend to believe that beauty and youth make them more worthy of love and that fighting for their rights or even expressing feminist ideals will make them less worthy of love......
And what is really sad about that is that the kind of 'love' they think they are worthy of by conforming, is not really love. It's no different in the western world on this score. How many people stay in abusive relationships, so beaten down (literally and emotionally) that they believe this is the only kind of 'love' they can ever hope for? When the word 'love' here, just means, 'not being alone to fend for yourself'. Yes I know a lot of the reasons behind why women don't leave men who abuse them are also because of a growing fear of being killed if they leave; but initially, when violence and abuse first start, what is the psychology behind why people stay? Because they feel they're not good enough to be treated decently, (ie to be truly
loved and because they may still get pockets of the bestowed 'love' at times.
To an extent we all imprison ourselves by fear. The need for 'acceptance', even if it comes at a huge price, is so strong that we will put up with all kinds of things rather than face rejection and isolation from the 'group'.
Reply to this And abusive relationships have another heap of gendercology associated with them. I did not realise how much of this stuff I have actually been taking in over the years. :D
This thread by my definition would be a hot topic. Those are ones that bring us face to face with strong negative emotions such as fear, frustration, sadness, anger, judgement, blame, jealousy, guilt.... And there is also a reason why almost everybody contributing to this thread is female. This clothing issue touches our deep emotions more than it does those of men.
Looking from the other side of the cannion at the mens view and how worthiness of love is perceived. In their eyes men who are wealthy and powerful are the most worthy of love. If there is a thread about making money how would the ratio of male female number of posts look. The way men view worthiness of love explains a lot about why there are wars, why there are only male dictators.....
All this gives some idea of what a mind boggling amount of re-education it will take to effectively solve the worlds problems. The problems are currently being solved with new laws and legislation. These are to a large extent effective but it is taking an incredible amount of force and energy to put them and keep them in place.
Reply to this I worked with RAWA a couple of years ago (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan). These women are all about integrity. Many of them have had acid thrown into their faces for refusing to wear a chador. Some had their husbands publicly executed for educating young girls (females are not to be educated there). Their leader, Meena was killed as well.
But they won't back down. It was quite an experience for me to work with such admirable human beings. These women risk their own lives every day for something they believe in: a better future for their children, and the children of their children.
Reply to this But they won't back down.
What a way for them to have to live! 😞
And how amazing that they are so determined to fight for their rights while over here so many are apathetic even though it is so mcuh easier for us to stand up for ourselves. But I suppose life is also relatively easy for us so we dont feel the need to fight so hard because our lives are at least tolerable enough in most cases.
I read some stuff about womens issues in Afghanistan and I feel desperately sad for them.
Reply to this I know.
In the morning, just before meeting those women for the first time I had breakfast at my hotel and was upset that my order was all messed up. Then I met the women and heard their stories for the first time. I decided I was never going to complain in my life ever again. When I went back to the hotel and saw the waiter that I had snapped at for messing up my order, I looked at him and I felt like such a bitch.
Later on, of course I didn't stick out the never complaining again part. But I certainly learned not taking things for granted.
Reply to this I know what you mean about how you feel but I still think the hotel should give the service you pay for. It is completely separate to the womens issues. But I generally dont bother to complain either about bad services anymore. I just move on to their competitors instead, which there generally are plenty of. :D
Reply to this 
