The Nazis are not dead.
They are accused of some of the worst war crimes of the 20th century. Now a final bid has been launched to bring them to justice before they die
Wanted: The last Nazis
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Hamburg, Germany News 1st May 2008
Demos in Barmbek
I cant find a news report in English so here is my brief interpretation.
There were 1000 neo nazis parading, about 6000 'counter-demonstrators', amongst whom the hardcore 'chaoten' (extremist lefties), turned up. It turned into a huge battle. Shops were smashed, cars burnt, what have you.
If you ask me, the mayor should not have allowed the neos to demonstrate. Asking for it. Hamburg is a concentration point for leftists, they'll never allow those skinheads to smugly stroll around 'their' streets.
Reply to this Did you or anybody you know witness the riots in Hamburg yesterday?
If so, tell us what you saw and what you think about it.
Mel
Reply to this If they were not allowed to protest, it would be an infringement on freedom of speech. Just like the left-wingers were allowed to protest, the neo-nazis ought to be allowed. You forgot to mention that the clash only occured because there was a chaotic (hence the name) "opposition" there to fuel the fire, but I saw no mention about how the Chaoten shouldn't be allowed to protest!
Part of freedom means that you aren't always going to agree with what people put across. I know in Germany, it's illegal to be a holocoust denier. I think it's stupid that someone would deny the holocoust happened- but, people need to be allowed to deny whatever it is they please, provided they don't break laws. I don't like it any more than you do...but, I prefer being free, to being "correct"... yes, even if that means letting ignorant racists march in the streets.
Secondly- not all skinheads are neo-nazis. Not all skinheads are racists, in fact... fewer are racist than those who are not. It was a working class english youth subculture that came out of jamaican dancehalls in the bad parts of London during the tail end of the 60's, and had little connection at all to nazism, until the National Front adopted "skinhead' as a part of their look back in the 80's. Today the subculture still plays a huge part in the punk/hardcore/ska scenes all over creation, and a number of these skinheads are your police officers, your soldiers, your sailors, and even your teachers. These cats who are protesting in the street of Hamburg are nothing more than baby Hitlers.
Reply to this And, furthermore... What you are describing you want to happen (not allowing free speech) has caused many problems in Germany. I have friends in Bavaria who feel as though they can't express enjoyment of being German, or express disgust towards the largly sedentary muslim populations that have invaded Europe, if you will.... because of the guilt that still exists over the Holocoust.
They aren't allowed to call for the defense of their homeland against foreign invaders, they aren't allowed things militarily, etc...all because of the ridiculous restrictions placed on Germany after the war.
It goes without saying that portions of Germany are, and will continue to be racist- but, are far from turning into a Nazi style state any time soon.
My friends certainly aren't racists- but, there is a lot of disgust in general- all over the country.
This isn't a black and white issue, my friend. And, the fact that a bunch of liberals marched out, to stomp out a demonstration they didn't "like"- when they are supposed to uphold "freedom"... well, that simply makes them just as big of nazis as the people they went out to start problems with.
Reply to this Should freedom of speech come with a responsibility?
Reply to this Of course. A responsibility to uphold other's rights to it, no matter how distasteful or seemingly uneducated the belief.
Reply to this Should we use our free speech in any way to help those who do not live in countries where the citizens have the luxury( the right) of free speech?
I think the least we can do to support the democratic philosophies many of us value so highly is to use our free speech rights to speak out against atrocities that are committed against people whose governments dont allow them to speak out about them.
Mel
Reply to this I don't think it is our job to try and "fix" things for others. A nation needs to speak out on its own. Outsiders will never make changes to a foreign nation, except through means of war...which is a sword that should only be wielded when necessary.
All we, as democratic nations can do- is stop throwing money at nations, stop interfearing with them, but, continue to give them encouragements- thereby allowing them to make the decision to change on their own. Throwing money at nations, and lobbying on behalf of them will not create democracy. It will do nothing but inspire complacency in the nations we wish to energize.
Prime example:
Economist Says Please Stop the Aid to Africa .
But, speaking out against atrocities and lack of freedom is not what you were suggesting... You were suggesting Germany use censorship against the neo-nazis.
You were suggesting that neo-nazis not be allowed to speak freely about their beliefs. They are not putting jews to death (committing atrocities). They are not currently persecuting anyone. They are simply speaking about what they believe in, through what was to be non-violent protest, until others came along to try and stamp out their words, because they did not believe the racists should be allowed free speech.
If you defend free speech, If you defend democracy- you should defend ALL speech... whether you like it or not.
Enemies of Democracy utilize the powers of censorship AGAINST democracy.
Democracy is not compatible with censorship. No matter the circumstance.
Reply to this Should hate mongering be allowed or not?
Good topic!
Should the Neo Nazis and others who stand for hate be allowed to demonstrate?
Should they be allowed to freely express themselves with no limits or should some controls be put on what they can say if they are allowed to demonstrate?
Are hate groups allowed to demonstrate in the country you live in and/or your country of origen?
What does everybody think?
BTW I didnt mean the Neo Nazi should not be allowed to demonstrate because they stand for hate. What I meant is that one could predict how much trouble it would cause and maybe it is unwise for the mayor to allow a situation that the police may not be able to control. I am actually undecided about whether hate groups should be allowed to demonstrate or not. I think them demonstrating can have the effect of showing society that they are there and causing more counter groups to speak. It is always a good idea to keep what is going on in society out in the open in my opinion.
Reply to this I was shopping in the center of Munich today, when I heard some screaming and shouting. I went to check it out and discovered that a large section of the center was sectioned off and no cars allowed in. People were lined up up along all the foot paths behind police barricades as a neo nazi demonstration passed. People were shouting ''get out Nazis'', ''go home Nazis'', ''you are crazy'', ''look how much police resourses you are costing''.... and blowing whisles and some were weaving Israeli or US flags(probably as a reminder that the Nazis did not do so well in the Second World War). I didnt shout anything but nodded in sympathy as people of non white races made comments about what was going on and explained to everybody who asked me what this is all about. The Neo Nazis didnt get to chant any of their slogans because they would not have been heard over the screaming and when they waved their political party flags it got louder. Apparently there were a lot of arrests. I only saw one before I wandered off to a cafe to have a coffee and chat with an American guy who looked slightly worried about it all. He says he stays away from things like that, but there were so many police that I dont think he need have worried. I saw what looked like a couple of the Neo Nazis come into the cafe. They didnt stay long. Maybe they were stared and glared at too much to be comfortable.
Dozens arrested in Munich during counter neo-Nazi protests
Here are a couple of news blogs with photos.
80 Festnahmen bei Protesten gegen Neonazi-Aufmarsch
Großdemos legen heute die Innenstadt lahm
80 Festnahmen bei Neonazi-Marsch
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